From whom?-It was sometimes given in when I was not in the office, and sometimes when I was in it. Who gave you any part of it?-Mr. David Andrew. Did Mr. Webster bring any of it?-Once, I remember. Who came to superintend the printing, and to inquire after it?—That person. Any body else?—No. Any to Mr. Baird ?-Never, to my remembrance. [Part of the MS. was shown to the witness.] Mr. Drummond. Did you ever see that before?-I never saw it before; it never came into my hands. Thomas Murray cross-examined by Mr. Grant for Alexander M'Laren. Was any part of the MS. pencilled?—I do not remember; the MS. was very imperfect, and was partly well and partly ill written; it 'was partly in quarto and partly in folio, in different hands. Do you remember the part that contains the blank, what size of the paper was there?-It was folio. I remember it quite well. There were two sheets of foolscap paper written on Mr. Baird ?-He was twice or three times at without being folded. the utmost. For the purpose of inquiring about the publication?-He was several times in the office. What did he do when he came ?-He came to the office along with Mr. David Andrew to look over the first proof. Did they make any alterations?-One was proposed by Mr. Baird. What was it?—I do not know. Can you point it out in the publication? No, for I never had it in my hand but now and before the sheriff of Ayr. Was any alteration made in consequence ?None. Why was it not made ?-It was a grammatical alteration that was proposed, I thought the alteration proposed was wrong, and I had a right to make the pamphlet grammatical. What became of the MS. from which the publication was printed?-It went as all of them do, it was destroyed; I was not desired to preserve it. Lord Advocate.-Look at the passage on page 7. " to with allegiance," was that blank in the MS.?-If I remember rightly, that part of the MS. was erased, written over again, then erased and interlined; and I do not know but I ordered my apprentice to leave the blank, as I could not make it out. To make the sentence join properly, I left it blank. Did Mr. Baird, when he came and looked over the MS., object to the blank, or state any thing? He never looked over it. You said Mr. Baird came with Mr. Andrew and looked over the first proof. Did he make any observation about the blank there left?— That was not in the first proof; the proof I spoke of was the proof of the first pages of the. pamphlet. Was it of the size of this, folded and written on as this ?—— [A sheet of folio paper shown the witness.] James Johnstone sworn.-F.xamined by Do you remember a public meeting at Dean park, near Kilmarnock ?—Yes. Do you know that there was a committee to prepare and adjust the business of that meeting?-I do. Of whom did it consist ?-I really cannot tell; of a number of persons; of myself for one. Was Mr. M'Laren one?—Yes. Were any resolutions prepared before the public meeting?-Yes. Were they read to the meeting which took place?—Yes. You attended that meeting ?—I did. Who first spoke ?-Alexander McLaren. Was there any meeting of this committee after that public meeting?-Yes, that evening. For what purpose?—The particular purpose was, to consider whether they should print their resolutions and speeches. Who attended that meeting? Were 'the panels there?—I think so. Was it resolved there to print the speeches and resolutions?—Yes. The several speakers gave in copies of their speeches?—I believe so, but I did not see them given in. thing but my own speech. Were you present when the proofs of the proceedings were revised?—I was not present Thomas Murray cross-examined by Mr. Jeffrey at the revision of any of them. for Thomas Baird. Were the proof sheets sent to any one to be revised?-They were. To whom?-To Mr. David Andrew. [The pamphlet was shown to the witness.] Is that the publication of the proceedings which took place at Dean-park at the time you mention? I suppose so. By whom does it appear to be printed? | Was it resolved at the committee that he Did you never read the pamphlet? -No. Not even your own speech?-No; I gave it to Mr. Walter Andrew to revise. Are these the resolutions that were read to the meeting?—I have glanced at them. I cannot say particularly they are the resolutions, but generally I believe so. Lord Advocate.-You are acquainted with M'Laren-Yes. He was a member of the committee? Yes. You have, of course, had conversations with him about the meeting and the publication? Yes, in a general way. Mr. Clerk.-Nobody is more competent to put regular questions to witnesses than my lord advocate, but I cannot permit him to proceed irregularly. What was the question put? Whether M'Laren complained of hell being in the MS. That was implying that the words were in the printed pamphlet, and nobody is entitled to suggest a false fact to a witness. No fact must be assumed in putting a question to a witness. Lord Advocate.-I wish the Court to keep in recollection what the question was to which I wished to get an answer-whether or no M'Laren complained of being misrepresented by "hell" being in the printed copy. My friend now admits that the question was not irregular. Mr. Clerk.-The question is not as it was put originally. Lord Advocate.-I put it to the Court that such was the question. Lord Justice Clerk.-I do not see any thing out of form here. Did you ever hear if Baird or he complained of inaccuracy in the statement given of the proceedings-Yes; Alexander M'Laren. What did he say?-That one sentence at the end of his speech in the printed account, and Lord Advocate. The opposite counsel were cited in the indictment was not in the original MS. He said it runs in this way: speaking of out of form in interrupting me, and they have the petition being presented to the Prince Re-rendered the question useless. If they again gent, "he hoped he would lend his gracious ear interrupt me, let them first desire the witness to it, as he was bound to do by the constitu- to be removed. tion; but if he did not do so, then to hell with allegiance." I think he said this was not in the original speech. Did you hear his speech?-Only the sound of it. Did you hear any of the words of it during the meeting?-I cannot say I did. What did M'Laren say was the inaccuracy? -He complained of the latter part of the sentence altogether being in it at all, because it was not in the MS. Did he complain of the word "hell ?" Mr. Clerk.-I object to the question. There is no such word in the publication. [The witness was ordered to withdraw.] Lord Advocate.-The drift of the examination I was carrying on at the time was, to bring out of the witness what was the conversation between him and M'Laren-whether [Witness brought back.] In what way did he say he was misrepresentI say he complained ed?-I did not say so. of the latter part of the sentence being put in, because it was not in the MS. Then he did not complain of being misrepresented?—Yes, in one word that he did not pronounce the word "their," or our," which comes in before" allegiance." You are looking at the printed statement. Did you not say that you had not seen it before?-I did not say I had not seen it; I said I had not read it. Lord Justice Clerk.-He says McLaren complained of being misrepresented with respect to a word before "allegiance," and he is entitled to look at the pamphlet. Witness.-As far as my judgment leads me to take notice, he complained of any thing intervening between the word "to" and "alleM'Laren objected to certain parts of the pub-giance," because it was not in his original MS. lication which he is alleged to have done. The He never intended to say it; it was merely a witness said he never read that publication. I word of some Play that occurred to his memory, am entitled to put the question, in order to and he let it out. ascertain the witness's recollection; and particularly, whether M'Laren complained of any word being in the MS. I submit that the question I put is competent, viz. whether M'Laren complained of "hell to allegiance" being in the MS. The thing, I admit, is now irremediable, because my learned friend has instructed the witness by stating that there is no such word in the publication; but I say it was irregular in my learned friend to interrupt me and thus to prepare the witness. Mr. Solicitor General.-Did he tell you' then, how the passage should have been printed?-He told me the identical words he used. The last words of the sentence were, "to hell allegiance." Lord Advocate.-Did he complain of the passage as stated in the indictment?—Yes; he gave the indictment to me to read. Lord Justice Clerk.-He said the passage was not correctly given either in the indictment or the printed account?-Exactly. Lord Advocate.-How long is it since he made this complaint to you?--I think the very day he received the indictment. James Johnstone cross-examined by Mr. Jeffrey for Thomas Baird. You mentioned that both of the panels were members of the committee with you. Was Mr. Baird at the public meeting?—Yes. Did you then, or at any other time, hear him make any remarks upon M'Laren's speech ?No. Did you not hear him at any other time make any remarks?-Yes, I have heard him several times complain, and say it was a pity the last sentence had been put in. Spoken, or put in ?-It was a pity it had been spoken at all. Were you present at the meeting about the printing?—Yes. Was any objection made to that passage ?I was against the printing altogether, not that I thought there was any thing wrong in the publication; but judging from my own, I supposed all the speeches were made up in a hurried way, and would not stand the scrutiny of the public eye. Do you remember Mr. Baird making any objections to the publication?—I do not particularly. Do you know any thing of the reasons stated for or against the printing?-The publication was to defray the expenses incurred at the public meeting. Was the sale of the publication intrusted to any particular persons?-To the committee in general. with better times. What were then the general wages?—About 12s. a week, from 12s. to 14s. greatest possible distress at Kilmarnock?— I need not therefore ask if there was the There can be no doubt of it. You talked of the meeting which was held near Kilmarnock. What was its object? Solely to petition the Prince Regent, and both Houses of Parliament, to consider the grievances of the country. It was our opinion, that one great reason of them was the defective state of the representation, more particularly in our part of the country; and therefore we particularly recommended attention to that. pe Were any other objects in view besides titioning, any other means thought of in order to obtain redress of these grievances ?—None. Was any conversation ever held in your presence by M'Laren that tended to any. other purpose than what is in the petition?None. Did you ever hear from him any hint, that induced you to believe he entertained disloyal opinions, or seditious intentions?-Never. Have you occasion to know whether he was of a peaceable and orderly disposition and habit of life?-I never heard or saw any thing to the contrary. How long have you been acquainted with him?-These eight years. Does it consist with your knowledge that he was a member of a volunteer corps at Glasgow ? I have heard that he was. Do you know of his being in the local militia, or Kilmarnock volunteer corps?—He was in the rifle corps at Kilmarnock. Was the public meeting conducted in an orderly and peaceable manner?—I considered [The MS. of the witness's speech was shown took the management, and that any gentleman it so. It was with no other intention I under to him.] will see from my speech. What was the state of the weather?-It was very coarse. There was hail, and wind, Was that written before or after the meeting ?-Before. You officiated as chairman at the meeting? and snow. -Yes. Perhaps that was the reason you did not hear the speech?-That was the reason; I just James Johnstone cross-examined by Mr. Grant heard the sound, but not the words. for Alexander McLaren. You are a muslin agent?—Yes. From that circumstance, have you an opportunity of being much acquainted with the situation of the manufacturers in Kilmarnock? -I think so. At present now, what may the most active weaver be able to clear in the course of a week?-At present things are rather better than they were some time ago. From a calculation I have made, an active weaver may at present gain about 5s. 6d. a week. What might he be able to gain a week on an average of the last year?-From 4s. to 4s. 6d. How many hours work a day was necessary to gain this sum?-At least from 14 to 15 bours. You have compared this period of distress It was not weather well calculated for any person hearing a speech distinctly?—It was very bad indeed. You said you were present at a meeting of the committee, when it was proposed to print the proceedings, and that M'Laren was there, and that you objected to the printing. Did any other person object?-Mr. M'Laren objected particularly to the printing of his speech. was a great deal of altercation as to the printWhat passed upon that occasion ?—There ing; and it was at last agreed that those who had made speeches should give them to a committee appointed to superintend the printing. Did Mr. M'Laren still object to his speech being printed?—He said, though the rest were printed, he did not see any reason for printing his, as it was made up in a hurried manner, and that he had no intention that morning of speaking at all. Were you present at any meeting of the committee previous to the públic meeting, for arranging about the public meeting?—Yes, I was at them all, I think. At a previous meeting were any steps taken as to appointing a person to open the proceedings at the public meeting?-It was discussed; and after a great deal of discussion, M'Laren agreed, that if no other person came forward, he would do it; and he mentioned to me since the meeting, he had no idea he should open the business, as another person had given a kind of promise to do it, and that person not appearing on the field, he went to a publichouse and prepared some observations. I saw him the night beforet he meeting, when he told me he had hopes another person would open it. Do you know who that other person was ?— Yes, M'Laren told me. Was the name of that other person publicly mentioned?-No, it was not. Was either of you a member of the committee that superintended the printing?—None of us. Do you know anything of a disturbance that took place about meal previous to the meeting? -I heard of it. Were you at Kilmarnock at the time ?-I was about two shops from it at the time. I did not consider it a mob or disturbance. Have you occasion to know how M'Laren conducted himself upon that occasion?—No, I have not. You said you have known him eight years. Did you ever know him to be connected with any body of men assembled for any seditious or illegal purpose?-Never, so far as I knew him, otherwise I would never have kept company with him. You are an extensive agent?-There are some much more extensive than I am. Have you ever heard M'Laren was a member of any society for any purpose ?-Of none but this committee. Court.-Does this committee still continue? -No, the committee does not continue. for Mr. Grant.-Was this committee open any person to go to ?-We never had a meeting which was not open; and there were always some others present besides the members of the committee. Any one was asked to attend. Were any precautions taken to keep your proceedings secret from the magistrates? None. Was it ever hinted or proposed that it would be necessary to keep the proceedings secret from the magistrates?-Never. In point of fact, were the magistrates made acquainted with the intention of the meeting? -I believe so. I called and told Mr. Baird I would not attend unless the magistrates were made acquainted with the intended meeting. VOL. XXXIII. He was appointed to tell them. Mr. Baird said he had called on the magistrate, but had not found him, and he said he would go again, and I understood from him he did go again. Was there, according to your knowledge, any obstruction offered by the magistrates to the meeting?-I saw none. Do you know whether, in point of fact, petitions, founded on the resolutions adopted at that meeting were prepared to the Prince Regent and the two Houses of Parliament ?— They were. Did you read them over?-I think nearly. I heard them all read. Does it consist with your knowledge that they were forwarded?—I was told so by Mr. Baird. I read in the public papers that they were presented. If I were to show you a printed copy of the petition, should you remember it? Lord Advocate.-Nothing is said in the indictment about the petition. Mr. Clerk.-Much will be said in defence upon this very fact about which we are examining the witness. Lord Advocate.-Defences have been given in for the panels, and no notice is taken in lordships will take notice of this. I only wish them of productions being to be made. Your you may keep this in view. Lord Justice Clerk.-We must receive whatever may go to exculpate the panels. [The account of the petition in a printed copy of the Journals of the House of Common" was handed to the witness.] Mr. Grant.-Were these the terms of the petition?-As far as my judgment serves me, that is the substance of the petition. Have you any doubts whether this is the same petition?-I have none at all. None can suppose my memory is such as to say these are the identical words. Your answer is quite proper. I have put a cross at the margin. Say whether you recollec particularly that the words there form part of the petition? Lord Advocate.-I consented to a few questions being put to the witness, but I now ob ject to any farther questions that are not cross. Mr. Grant.-I am just finishing this part of the examination. I have only to read a pasage, and ask the witness whether he remembers it. "When we came to discover thos alarming facts, our hearts stood appalled, as if we had trod on a volcano: We looked around for the cause, and we found it 'in the very corrupt and defective representation of the people in parliament. We found, that the Commons House, whose members ought to be chosen annually by the people-should be the organ of the people's voice-the guardians f their rights and of the public purse-had lost all control over the servants of the Crown, and D had become subservient to the will of the minister of the day: That the great body of the people are excluded from their elective franchise that a majority of your honourable House are returned to parliament by proprietors of rotten boroughs, the influence of the Treasury and a few other individuals; and that seats therein are bought and sold like tickets for the Opera." Were these the words in the petition ?-I think these identical words were in the petition which was forwarded to parliament, and ordered to lie on the table, I believe. You remember being shewn this printed publication. You said M'Laren complained of the latter part of his speech being inserted because it was not in the manuscript ?—Yes, I did. Say what part was not in the manuscript? I cannot say what were the words he spoke at the meeting. What he said to me was, that he concluded with a line of a play, and it was 66 to hell allegiance." Mr. Clerk. Did he say that any part of the passage before that was not in his manuscript? -He just said the latter part of the sentence was not in the manuscript. You said you had a conversation with him when he shewed his indictment, and that he complained as you have stated. Had you any other conversation with him on the subject than on that occasion?-Perhaps there might be two or three, but to the same purpose. Did he attempt to influence you as to what evidence you should give at this trial?—Neither of us considered I should be called on to give evidence. I did not know what he had spoken, nor about the selling of the pamphlets. Lord Advocate.-We have had a very eloquent petition read. By whom was it composed?-I do not know. Did any member of the committee compose it?—The committee for superintending the printing were appointed to compose it, namely, Thomas Baird, W. Finnie, W. Andrew, D. Andrew, and W. Webster. They produced it to you as their own composition? It was produced and read at the meeting. Did they say anything that led you to suppose that it was not their own composition ?—I do not think they did. Did they not say from whom they got it? They did not. There was some amendment made upon it. Upon your oath can you state that none of them said to you anything about the getting of the petition?-I heard nothing of it. Did any member of the committee give you to understand they had not drawn up that petition, but got it from another quarter?-It would be ridiculous for a man to speak posi tively to a thing he does not recollect of. Hugh Wilson sworn.-Examined by about the beginning of December?-I believe it might be about that time. Who was the preses of the meeting ?-James Johnston. Who made the first speech?-Alexander M'Laren. Did you read an account of the speech ?Yes. Was it correct?—I do not remember. Did it appear correct or incorrect, generally speaking ?-Yes, it appeared correct. I Did you see anything that was incorrect?— cannot say that I did. Do you know where it was sold?-At Thomas Baird's. [Pamphlet was handed to the witness.] Did you buy this copy in Baird's shop?Yes, I believe I did; I am certain I did. Do you see your subscription there?—Yes. Where did you write it?-In Mr. Brown's. Who was in the shop when you bought it?— I do not recollect. Lord Advocate.-Are there any booksellers in Kilmarnock ?—Yes. Hugh Wilson cross-examined by Mr. Grant for Alexander M'Laren. What was the object of the meeting?—To consider the propriety of petitioning parliament for a reform. Had the meeting any other object ?—None, that I know of. Did any person recommend anything else? -Not that I heard. Did you hear the panel M'Laren speak upon that occasion ?—Yes, I was there at the time, I heard part of his speech. Was it a very stormy day ?-Very stormy. Was there hail?—Yes. Were many umbrellas up?-A great number. hail upon them so as to prevent you from Was any noise made by the pattering of the hearing?—Yes. Was every thing conducted in an orderly and peaceable manner?—Yes, they did. Did you sign the petitions to the legislature? -Yes. titions were?—No. Do you recollect what the terms of the pe Are you well acquainted with the panel Alexander M'Laren ?—Yes. him?-A great many years; five or six, or How long have you been acquainted with better. able demeanour and loyalty?-A good character, What character has he possessed as to peace as far as I know. and troublesome, or loyal and peaceable?— Has he had the reputation of being seditious The latter. Was he ever connected with any society?— I do not know; he was a member of the committee for petitioning for reform. But with none other?-With no other that I Were you at a public meeting in Dean-park, know of. |