before I get the certificate out they measure the rooms as to height, width and length? A. They do not, that is entirely within the jurisdiction of the Tenement House Department. In relation to that though I could say this, that my inspectors without a dollar's additional cost to the city could do that work because they are obliged to go to that building day after day when there is nothing for our inspector to do but pick it up on his rounds and he could do that work at that time.

Mr. ELKUS: And he could also do it for every other department?

Mr. MOORE: Every other department but I do not agree with your proposition that one man is sufficient to inspect all sorts of work.

Q. As a matter of fact the inspections of the Tenement House Department and your department are simply and purely a duplication? A. No, there is no duplication between the Tenement House Department and the Building Department at the present time.

Mr. ELKUS: The point is your inspectors could do the same work?

Mr. MOORE: My inspectors could do it. It would save the city money and it would be more convenient for the owner, but there is no duplication.

Q. Is there sometimes a conflict between your department and the Tenement House Department? A. I don't know of any.

Q. Wasn't there a conflict between your department and the Tenement House Department on this building on Amity street? A. That is something they had nothing to do with and interfered with a matter that they had nothing to do with.

Q. Didn't they order me to take it out? A. I don't know.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. Are your inspectors competent to do all the inspection work that is now required to be done by the Tenement House Department? A. The Tenement House Department looks after the light and ventilation. They look after the sizes of windows and

sizes of rooms. I am talking about the building before it is completed, and that is all that I refer to. Now, a clerk, with very little practice could do that as well as a mason or carpenter or plumber. In other words any man that has common sense and education could do the work that is required of a Tenement House inspector provided he knows the law, so that my men could do it as well as the Tenement House inspector and could do it without additional cost I think.

By Commissioner MCGUIRE:

Q. Mr. Moore what was the appropriation for your department in 1914? A. You mean Queens?

Q. Yes, Queens? A. $87,000.

Q. What was the Department estimate for 1915? A. The same thing.

Q. You did not ask for any increase? A. I asked for an increase but did not get it.

Q. Would you care to approximate how much more it would cost to inspect work in the Borough of Queens if it were being done under a consolidated department? A. You mean centralized department more do you mean?

Q. How much do you approximate the cost, how much more than the $87,000? A. That I could not approximate but if I compare the figures of Manhattan, on which plans the department. would probably be run, I would say this, that the cost would be double. I will give you my reason. We have in the Borough of Queens filed every year approximately six thousand plans and alterations. In the Greater City of New York there are but 14,000 plans filed. In other words Queens has three-sevenths of the plans filed in Greater New York. To do the clerical work in connection with a plan filed there is as much clerical work on a plan in the Borough of Queens for a chicken house in the back yard for the remotest part of Queens as there is on the plan of the Woolworth building. I make that statement and defy challenge. I get along with seven clerks and do all of that work. I have two stenographers. The Manhattan department has 47 clerks and 21 stenographers. Now if you appoint the new building department you are going to organize under this plant and introduce the Manhattan methods you will find the building de

partment will not save the million dollars we are talking about but will double it to another million above the present cost.

Q. You believe a saving could be made by consolidating this department if you put the consolidated department under the head of the respective borough presidents? A. I do.

Q. How much do you believe could be saved? A. Nine hundred thousand dollars.

Q. On the entire city? A. On the entire city.

Q. Speaking of your own borough? A. I can not segregate the matter because I do not know just what the tenement house charges would be in Queens, what the Water Department charge would be in Queens, but I do know what additional cost would be in Queens and that it could be done for less than six thousand dollars. For six thousand dollars I will take over all of that work and do it properly.

By Mr. ELKUS:

Q. Mr. Moore we are all discussing this one plan and everybody, with few exceptions, seems to be in favor of consolidation? A. There is no doubt about it.

Q. Is there any other kind of plan you can think of? A. To get away from it?

Q. Yes? A. No.

Q. You heard Commissioner Adamson's suggestion that the Fire Department should be left, the Fire Prevention Bureau? A. There is a history to all departments. About the Fire Prevention Bureau, the cause of the creation of that Bureau was the Triangle fire. As far as that and the Tenement House and the fire protection work and the factory inspection work, that was done for years and years by the building department and was done properly and if any trouble came afterward it was not because of the building department not doing their work, but because they did not have the power to enforce the law. Now give the building department back their proper capacities, let them do this work and give them the power to enforce the law and you will do better than you will with all of these other departments.

Q. They did not have these laws? A. They did not have the laws.

Q. And did not have the power to enforce the laws, did they? A. That's the idea.

Q. And they did not have enough inspectors? A. You will have to admit it, you have been at all of the hearings and I have been only at a few there has been no criticism of the borough department.

Q. I can not quite agree with you on that? A. If there has it has been on the proposition that I have been trying to overcome, the uniformity of rules only.

Q. We did not start with any proposed plan; we are here to get views? A. I have had my say.

Q. One question, do you know of any other way except by consolidation of these departments into one department, whether it be in the Bureau of Buildings under the boroughs or whether it be under a centralized bureau, do you know of any other way except by consolidation? A. No, I do not.

By Commissioner MCGUIRE:

Q. Could you get for the information of the Commission the cost of the various departments now doing the inspection work in the borough of Queens, the Tenement House and other departments I think it will be difficult to get that because they don't separate it and tell the Commission what in your opinion it would cost to do that under a consolidated department; now that would only be approximate information but it would be helpful; do you think you could do that? A. I do not think I could, first for the reason that the other departments who were going to be legislated out of office would not be likely to give me the figures; and secondly for the reason that I do not know the methods that they are going to employ, whether they are going to employ the methods now in vogue in the boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens or going to employ the Manhattan methods.

Q. I ask you on the assumption that they are going to do as you suggest, under the borough president; tell the commission what you think it will cost the consolidated department in the Borough of Queens to do the required work? A. I will do that.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. Didn't you say you could do it for six thousand dollars more? A. Yes, sir, six thousand dollars more.

Q. That would make it $93,000? A. $93,000 and by that I mean this only that I will examine the plans for all buildings that are submitted in accordance with law including the building code, the fire prevention, labor law, moving picture theatres, and I will make the examinations and turn them over with a certificate that they are built according to the law.

By Commissioner JACKSON:

Q. How many examiners have you? A. We have five examiners. I think under the new scheme we would need an additional examiner.

Q. Five examiners to run over how many plans? A. Six thousand a year.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. Mr. Moore you are satisfied that the present system of inspection is faulty? A. Yes, there is no doubt about it.

Q. And you think it ought to be changed and simplified? A. Yes.

Q. And there could be a reduction in the amount of money which the city is paying for these inspections? A. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN: Mr. Moore is a practical man and he has a very high reputation and his plan is that it should be by consolidation under the boroughs.

By Mr. HELMS:

Q. Do you think this Board of Standards and Appeals could take the same duties as the Board of Examiners have to do and instead of having a separate Board of Examiners and a Board of Appeals that we have one board and have that board perform the same functions that the Board of Examiners do today? A. I do not like the plan, I think the Board of Examiners should be conducted just as they are.