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He was satisfied with respect to New York, and it was impossible any other corporate body or person could be affected by the motion. The transfer, he said, was a sale of the property, therefore, a denial of transfer would completely prevent any person from being involved in this measure, be sides the State in question.

Mr. GILBERT asked the gentleman last up, if there was no difficulty of a Constitutional kind in the way of this measure? If he understood the Constitution, they could not pass an expost facto law. Had they not already said this paper should be transferable? If so, had they a right to say it should not be transferable? Was this the regard which the Legislature intended to show to its own faith? He trusted it was not.

Mr. POTTER objected to the present motion. He said the State of New York was a debtor, or not. She would either show herself not to be a debtor, or pay. But to pass this resolution, would be to consider them as swindlers. If it was a debt, he was confident they would pay it.

Mr. P. said, he could not account for the manner in which the gentlemen from New York had managed this subject. In one place, they say they have no authority to act, and yet, in the next moment, they proceed to oppose the resolution to call upon their State for the debt, as if they supposed that, unless they opposed the matter, their State would be so simple and honest as to pay, without objection. But, for his part, until he knew whether the State would pay this debt, or not, he should believe they would pay it honorably.

[H. OF R.

The original resolution being under consideration

Mr. HENDERSON said, he should not have risen, but for an observation of the gentleman from New York, [Mr. GILBERT.] That gentleman had said, "that he did not believe there was a member of that Committee who really believed the balance found against the State of New York to be just." Mr. H. said, if he were of this opinion, he should vote against the resolution; but, believing, as he did, that the balances were just, being settled by men of abilities and integrity, who had no interest to do other than right, a d as no objection had ever been made by any of the States against the balances, he should think himself unfaithful to his constituents, if he did not vote for it. He begged, therefore, the gentleman would except him from the number who did not believe the debt just.

Mr. GILBERT allowed the gentleman might be an exception; he again adverted to the services and sufferings of New York during the war, observing, with respect to the settlement, that, while other States brought everything, and circumstance, and more than all in their account, New York brought nothing but what was fair and upright; and that they cast nearly a million of dollars more, for the support of the whole, than all the delinquent States put together.

Mr. THATCHER would tell the gentleman that he believed from his heart, that the debt was just. Mr. POTTER said, one gentleman from New York talked of the great exertions of that State in the war, another came forward and said, he did not believe there was a member in the House who believed in his heart the debt was just. Every State in the Union, he said, might come forward and boast of what they had done; but it would serve little purpose; for his part, he believed New York had done the least, and been benefited more than any two States. He wished, also, to be excepted from the gentleman's account. He thought the debt just.

Mr. WILLIAMS rose to vindicate the conduct of the New York members in speaking on the subject he also wished to know why the resolution should be levelled at New York only; he considered it as very unfair dealing. He said. they only contended, if the settlement was fair, the demand would be complied with; until they were convinced of that, it could not be expected. He would ask, respecting the motion under consideration-was it fair for them to lay their hands on all Mr. BURGES. Mr. Čhairman, the State of North they could, because it was in their power? The Carolina is among those called debtor Statesgentleman who brought forward this second reso-her Representatives feel some of the observations lution, perhaps, knew that the State he represented had no money in the United States' fund, else he would not have moved it. He asked again, why they should aim at New York alone, when Delaware and other States were in a like situation ?

Mr. GALLATIN wished the mover to modify the resolution, so that it should not affect any State to a greater amount than the debt they owed. For instance, the balance against Pennsylvania was about eighty thousand dollars, but she had upwards of four hundred thousand in the funds, and he should wish that the provision should not reach to a higher sum than the eighty thousand. He said, he had, however, no sort of view to Pennsylvania, because he believed she would make no objection to fulfil her engagements.

An amendment to this effect was introduced, when the question was put and negatived-45 to 30.

which have been made, forcibly-that North Carolina is unwilling to pay just demands they cannot concede; that she is not willing to pay this demand, they do believe; and yet. I am not prepared to assert this an unjust one. The amendment lately negatived might have given means to have quieted, or have justified her-gentlemen, however, thought it a dangerous one-perhaps it was. That amendment might have precluded them from the means of satisfying her how the exertions, expenses, or sufferings of sister States, so far exceeded hers, as to leave her, justly, so great a debtor; and believing as she does, that she did all she could-are her Representatives to blame for opposing the present resolution on your table? I beg gentlemen to consider the extent of this demand, and the small resources of revenue North Carolina possesses, and ever has possessed-I believe, sir, I am correct in saying, it nearly equals the one-half of the aggregate amount

H. or R.J

Debts due from States.

[JANUARY, 1797.

parative merit of sister States. She did all she could-so did others-mighty was the strugglerich the prize-contested and glorious the result. But, sir, North Carolina was the first theatre of war-the blockade of Boston excepted. Unfortu nately her citizens were of divided politics; this the English Government knew, and made there the first efforts-thousands joined them-internal war raged with violence: to which your Journals

of her nett revenues from her charter from Charles the Second, until the commencement of the war. This, sir, is no trifling aggravation. Will gentlemen stop, then, one moment? will they reflect? Will the dignity of the United States be promoted by receding from a demand, earnestly, solemnly made? How? where? where is it to be made? If just, sir, I would ask, is it prudent? But will the State of North Carolina, with the information it possesses, think it just? Permit me, sir, gen-bear ample testimony, by the well-earned laurels tlemen have spoken of what other States have done, and of what they have not done; with leave, I will state a little of what North Carolina has done and suffered-of what she has not done-of what she cannot do-and of what, I fear, she will both do and suffer. But just let me say what she was, is, and may be. I have not been in the habit of troubling the House with long harangues, nor do I now intend to do it. As my voice is weak, and I am no orator, I must beg a patient indulgence.

so liberally then bestowed to the success of the advocates of liberty. But, alas! the fire was kindied-for seventeen years and upwards, her villages, fields, and forests, were never free from the inroads of the enemy, aided by her misguided sons. From the Virginia line to the Southern boundary-from the shores of the Atlantic to the Indian settlements, was this devoted country exposed to domestic, foreign, and savage cruelty; a scene of desolation, fire, and sword; while, far removed from the seat of preparation and power, Sir, North Carolina was, before the war, a wide she was constrained to exceed her own resources. extended territory of eighty or ninety thousand Twenty millions of dollars were emitted; several square miles, with less than two hundred thousand millions of which exchanged for service and supinhabitants, consisting of farmers, planters, labor-plies, and sunk in possession of the holders, to the ers, and hunters-in spacious settlements-with-ruin of her citizens; nor is she able to indemnify out great cities-with little money, and not much capital-with numerous flocks and herds-no rich men, and but few paupers. Perhaps, in no known country of the world was property more equally divided, the inhabitants less dependent on or united with each other, with a revenue short of fifty thousand dollars, and with little public debt.

them. This falling discount was incurable; and with this, the over-rigid economy of her agents rendered doubly oppressive. I appeal to her records for the truth of this, and ask, was this the case in all the States? No, sir. From these two sources is her present disastrous state and mighty debt. The detail is better conceived than expressed to justify ourselves, rather than accuse others, is my object.

North Carolina, sir, now has less than half her former extent of territory; and, according to the Again, sir, North Carolina independently gained last census, nearly double the number of inhabit- and gave up as common stock, for liquidation of ants. Ruined cities, desolated villages, deserted public expense, more than half her territory. Alfarms, a few rich and many poor, little increase of though some of her ablest statesmen wept at the revenue, and a public debt glaring her in the face-surrender, she was deaf to their remonstrances. I increased to the amount of twenty years of her revenue. She has no claim to the character of a commercial country: she possesses small resources, and she has nearly lost, by at least, the ill-timed, however well-intended interposition of sister States, all value in a species of property, once of considerable estimation; a species of property which the Almighty, in wrath to our forefathers, suffered to be entailed on us, and which it is hardly possible she can be happy with, and most certain, for a time at least, with her present habits, be so without.

North Carolina has some resources which time may mature, to an independent, happy mediocrity. If she cannot figure with her commercial sister States, and aid you with extensive revenues of her own collection, she will be a great consumerher sons love good cheer and fine clothes-they are numerous, and return your merchants their imposts with handsome profits. Witness the Newbern principalities, so conspicuous in all the great commercial States. She may not, if you check her, give you numerous, independent, and faithful citizens, and armies of hardy soldiers.

Of what North Carolina has done in the common cause, she will not boast, to lessen the com

ask gentlemen if she would have done thus, had she expected the present demand? Besides, sir, North Carolina, conscious that her convulsed state, and other circumstances above adduced, would prevent an arrangement of accounts that would secure her equal justice, was opposed to the assumption by which this debt is created. I do not make this matter of merit, but state it as a natural cause that may increase her discontent.

Again, sir, North Carolina, far removed from the seat of public information, and with little advantages of frequent commercial intercourse, bad not the opportunity of equal benefit from the pittance of the rigid economy which her agents had left her citizens. With honest indignation, she now reflects that her public securities are swept away by foreigners and citizens who, with more prompt information, perverted her every village and almost every farm, as the enemy, in time of war, and with little less fatality, and almost without money and without price.

Again, sir, I would observe, of what North Carolina cannot do. I beg her pardon, if I underrate her; but I do believe she cannot pay the demand, with the accruing interest, and provide for her own Government; the more especially so, if

Debts due from States.

the apportionment of direct taxes contemplated that a State, famed for her order and good governshould obtain, without unreasonably and unequal-ment, would not refuse to pay a debt so justly ly burdening that part of your citizens. due. It was a large State, and, he thought, able to pay, and it was but just.

would do what he thought necessary, viz: testify to the world his objections to the present proceedings. He had already taken up so much time of the Committee, which, however, had been mostly employed in fruitless attemps to get the subject postponed, that he should be unwilling then to trespass long upon their patience.

(JANUARY, 1797.

charges had been made by other States as would have convinced that House of the propriety of setting aside this settlement; but, not having these vouchers, he would say no more on this head.

The rules of settlement being changed without their consent, being, in their opinion, unjust, if it was in vain that he appealed to the justice and equity of the House, he would appeal to the expediency of the present measure. The debt, he said, might be just. He would not be understood as saying that the State of New York considered the debt as unjust, but he thought she did. Thinking it unjust, the probability was she would refuse to pay it, and produce her vouchers to the world, to show that she ought not to pay it. In what situation would the United States then be?

This business, he said, originated under the Old Confederation. The States agreed upon an order for the settlement of their debts, but in the new Constitution, they entered into no new Governmental compact for the settlement of these debts, so that it was found to be necessary to take up the subject. They, therefore, found two laws passed. Here, he said, was the great evil which New York had to complain of. Here, every State who wished to set aside the settlement should point. The United States, who was a party concerned, passed The State of New York was not to be looked a law appointing Commissioners and prescribing upon as an individual-it was a sovereign, inderules to govern the two parties, without any dele- pendent State of the Union; persuaded of the ingation from the States. All the States, he said, justice of the present claim, she would refuse to would always have an interest in throwing a bur- pay it. Already, said he, you would have taken den upon one State; and the injustice complained one step; you have said you would be paid. They of would appear, if it was shown that this was had been told, he said, by the gentleman from done. It was not only their interest, he said, to South Carolina [Mr. W. SMITH] of the advantado this, but rules had actually been prescribed ges which would arise to the Union by the paywhich were unjust to some of the States. This ment of this debt by the State of New York. He law, he said, was passed. New York had no Re- told them of the Navy, the Forts, &c., it would presentatives in the matter who had power to build. Indeed, he put him in mind of the exploits bind her to this new settlement. The amount of of Don Quixotte; for, though he had not built that State was kept clear and regular, with vouch- himself wind-mills, he had erected himself many ers to every charge; but in this law, it was allow-beautiful castles in the air, which, he fancied, ed to the Commissioners to receive accounts unsupported by vouchers, if they should see proper. He asked if this were just to those who had been scrupulously correct? If it were just, he thanked God he had never learnt or practised upon such principles of justice. Another rule established was, how the debt should be divided amongst the different States. The States had prescribed rules, under the Old Confederation, but these were changed by this law. It was now settled that the rule of apportionment should be made upon a scale of population. How this affected New York had been shown by one of his colleagues, [Mr. WILLIAMS.] From forty or fifty thousand inhabitants, which was about their number at the conclusion of the war, from emigration, they had then one hundred and thirty, or one hundred and forty thousand. He asked, therefore, whether this rule was just? If it was not, how could gentlemen be charged with advocating unfounded positions, and even have a week's delay refused to gain information on the subject. It was his opinion these arguments had weight; but, perhaps, his opinion might not have much weight with the Com

mittee.

But, setting aside the principle of apportioning the debt, taking it for granted that New York consented to the whole, still, he said, there were principles even in common law, under an award, which this business had been likened to, that would enable them to attain relief under their complaints. It was impossible; time had not been allowed them to do it, to bring forward vouchers; otherwise they should have proved that such over

would have their proper effect upon the House.

He hoped the reasons he adduced, if they had not the effect to reject the proposition, would at least show that the State of New York had ground to be dissatisfied with the proceeding.

Mr. BALDWIN said, if the observations of the gentleman last up were well founded, there would be something to justify the House to cancel the debts; but he thought it could Le plainly proved they were not. If the gentleman would give himself the trouble to look at the old ordinance, he would find the whole of the settlement accompanied by vouchers of incontestable authority; the Commissioners admitted of nothing but real parole evidence; they heard the story, examined the evidence, and then reported what was their best judgment of the true settlement. Mr. B. also answered to the observation of the member on the obscurity of the settlement. He observed that it would be inconsistent, improper, and almost impossible, to go back again into the settlement. He said that the settlement was authorized by three several unanimous acts of the Government, which he thought sufficiently good auspices to warrant a procedure; and as good as could be expected, were the settlement to begin again. Mr. B. said, such a scene as was exhibited at the commencement of the sitting of the Commissioners perhaps never before occurred; it appeared as though all the individual States were in severe conflict with the United States to obtain their settlements; it was done with closed doors. Such a scene he hoped never again to witness.

As for the State he lived in, they had been pay