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at the expence of our own defence? I
was necessary for the house to take care
that it should not be committed to the
discretion, or rather the indiscretion of
any man,
After the experience we had
had, who could say that an unbalanced
army was the best means of defence?
The hon. gent. then placed in a strong
point of view the injury to the militia
service by this mode of proceeding. It
had a tendency to produce disorganization
and disgust in the home service, and to
preserve all this when created. He ad-
verted to the permanent, admirable, and
deeply founded system of his right hon.
friend (Mr. Windham), and observed,
that it was impossible to discuss such
measures as this, without taking that sys-
tem into view. All circumstances that
bore upon the question were to be consi-
dered, and upon the whole, he thought
that this system of expedients was the
most insufficient and burthensome that
could be resorted to.

Mr. Lockhart said, that the events which had taken place might convince us, that we ought not to trust to a mere defensive force, of whatever description; whether armed peasantry, local militia, or even militia. All systems were liable to objection; but the question was, whether this was not the best that could be adopted at present? He never understood, that the plan of the right hon. gent. (Mr.Windham) had been abandoned: but, at the same time, it was not sufficient for procuring an immediate supply, which was what was now wanted.

around him, were to form, that new administration, still they should be obliged; to his majesty's present ministers for making such an increase of the disposable force as would give their successors in office a greater power to wield, without incurring the odium of creating it. His majesty's ministers would be liable to a serious charge against them, if, thinking as they did of the necessity of increasing the army, they were yet to abstain for months from a measure they conceived necessary to the state, and not to bring it forward until they had the verdict of that house upon the several parts of their administration which were to be the subject of future discussion. He allowed that it was the bounden duty of ministers, when they came down to the house, to propose any measure that would increase the pres sure upon the country, to point out an adequate necessity. Ministers had always two objects in view, in the measures which they proposed for augmenting the army. The first was to increase the disposable force; and the second was, to take care that the defensive force should be so strong as that the country should not be exposed to peril and danger from the manly exertions which his majesty's government might feel it their duty to recommend for the assistance of other nations. Whatever was the present appearance of the probabability of success to the cause of Spain, yet as the principle was agreed to on all sides of the house, it followed, that whe ther any or what portion of our army was to be sent to the assistance of Spain, wasa pure military question, which was only to be determined by the executive power. If ministers should afterwards appear to have given improper advice, or to have mismanaged the military means of the country, they were subject to a heavy responsibili ty; but he could not think the gentlemen on the other side would really wish to tie up the hands of the executive, and deprive it of all means of acting as circumstances might render necessary, merely from the fear that it might be advised to act wrong, or to make an imprudent use of its strength.

Lord Castlereagh said, that although the house was pledged to the throne on the principle of increasing the army, yet the best mode of carrying that principle into effect was certainly a very fair matter for discussion. He, for his part, must support the plan which he had presented, and which appeared to him likely to increase considerably the disposable force, without at the same tine impairing the defensive strength of the country. An hon. gent. had stated, that he objected to the increase of the disposable force, until there was an administration more capable of wield-He could not believe that the gentlemen ing it with advantage to the country. This was certainly no objection to the measure itself; for if the hon. gent. would point out to the house who these men were who would manage the strength of the empire with greater ability, and more to the public advantage; if that hon. gent., and his friends, who were sitting

on the other side could suppose that they
saw their way so clear in respect of the
war in Spain, as to say that circum-
stances might not occur which would
make it the bounden duty of this coun-
try to give the most powerful assist-
ance to the Spanish Patriots.
his firm opinion, that while the people of

It was

Spain were true to themselves and to
their own cause, it was not only the in-
terest of this country, but the pledged
duty of parliament, to support them. He
did not mean to say, that we were now to
embark in wild military speculations that
had no chance of succeeding; but it was
still his opinion, that if the Spanish people
continued to display that energy which
they had shewn not many months ago, the
struggle in that country was by no means
at an end. But supposing that struggle to
be now completely at an end, did not
other views open to the mind of the hon.
gent., and shew the necessity still of in-
creasing our armies? Were we to suppose
that no occasion could ever after occur in
which they might be wanted on foreign
service, or that the exertions of mankind
were for ever to be tied down by the
tyranny and usurpation of one individual?
If no field of action presented itself in
Europe, British interests might call them
for the defence of another part of the
world; while, at the same time, we must
keep an invincible army on our own shores
to protect them from danger and from
insult. He hoped that these consi-
derations would be considered as suf-
ficient arguments for the general prin-
'ciple of increasing the disposable force.
He believed an hon. gent. on the other
side had fallen into a great mistake in
stating the diminution of the army in the
present year, and he believed the mistake
arose from the artillery being included in
the return of the last year, who were not
included in the return of the present. In
'considering how the army was at present
'organized, there were 126 battalions of in-
fantry, whose numbers exceeded 600, and
there were 56 that fell short in number. It
was well known that battalions, not amount-
ing to 600, were considered inefficient, and
not fit for service, and that the efficiency
of the army depended a great deal on the
'battalions being full and complete.
this measure obtained 27,000 men, it would
complete all the battalions of our infan-
try up to 900 men. There never was,
perhaps, a more efficient army for its num-
ber, than that which was lately acting upon
the continent. In Portugal there were about
29,000 men in 32 regiments; if there was
now a deficiency in the fulness of our
battalions, from the losses of that cam-
paign, it was absolutely necessary that it
should be repaired. This was a measure
which would not only increase the dis-
posable force, but ameliorate the internal
VOL. XII.

organization of our army, and prevent the country being burdened with inefficient second battalions.-He should next advert to a former topic, namely, the comparative merit of the plan of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), and the experiment which he had thought it proper to make, of allowing men (if they pleased) to enlist for unlimited service. Now, if the gentlemen on the other side contended, that experience had decided in favour of the theoretic principles of the right hon. gent. he thought he could account for the result. His experiment had, in fact, been only tried for the last six months. For the first eight months of the time the gentlemen began their calculation, it was contrary to law for men to enlist for unlimited service, and therefore all the recruits which were got were for the limited service. For several months after it was lawful, it did not appear to be generally understood in the army. It was not till the last six months that any had begun to enlist for unlimited service. The first month only 12 men enlisted for unlimited service; but as the thing became understood, the number progressively increased. In the month of December, no less than 970 preferred the unlimited service. Of the last 1,400 recruits which were raised, about 1,100 chose the unlimited service; so that, instead of his experiment having failed, he thought it was evident that men preferred generally the unlimited service to the limited, and the profession of a soldier to the seven years service, which looked more like a trade. He had been twitted with its being an Irish discovery, perhaps suited to the temper and spirit of the Irish nation, but not adapted to this country or its more sober neighbour, Scotland. The event, however, did not justify this charge, as he was always much more disposed to rest his arguments on experience and facts, than upon abstract principles of philosoIf phy. He was perfectly convinced that there was no other rational ground for the system of the right hon. gent., than that it was likely to produce more men; for it never could be said that it was likely to improve the discipline of the army. He was so far from rejecting the system altogether, that he by no means wished to exclude men from entering for limited service, being convinced that there were many men who would prefer this mode of enlistment; but as he was equally convinced that there were many others who would prefer the enlisting for unlimited Y

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service, he thought it but fair that they should be allowed their option. wished to carry along with the more perishable materials of an army, as much as he could get of permanent. The fact about the number of recruits was, that, whatever was the system, the country regularly produced about 1,200 men a month. How the number came to be so exact, he could not say. Recruiting serjeants might often put grave legislators to the blush, and there was a certain recruiting law which that house did not understand, and which perhaps got the men better than acts of parliament. Even in the halcyon days of high bounty, and no ballot, it was not found that the number of recruits exceeded the regular number by 100 men, nor under any other system did they fall short to that amount.-It had been mentioned, that large armies were dangerous to civil liberty. Gracious God! could any rational man now suppose, that the liberties of this country were in any danger from any regular army that it was judged proper to raise, balanced as that army must be by an immense force of Militia, Local Militia, and other armed descriptions of force, and still more balanced by those constitutional feelings which animated no description of his majesty's subjects more strongly than it did our gallant armies, which had so often and so recently acquired immortal honour for themselves and their country. He trusted the house would not be discouraged by the present aspect of affairs, but that they would see the necessity of increasing rapidly our disposable force.

Earl Temple said, that the noble lord had now shewn us the nature and spirit of the measure, for the transfer was not now made on an emergency, but in contemplation of an emergency. So that this was now to become a regular system from year to year. This, he said, was a very bad mode of increasing the regular army, and as a regular system, he had the strongest objection to it. His lordship also defended the plan of his rt. hon. friend (Mr. Windham), and stated, that when the noble lord laid his cold fingers upon it, it was producing at the rate of 24,000 a year, instead of the 13,000 produced by the noble lord; and out of the 27,000 that volunteered from the Militia, 20,000 were for limited service at a lower bounty.

The Bill was then read a second time.

HOUSE OF Lords.

Friday, February 3.

[SPAIN AND PORTUGAL.] Lord Erskine rose to make the motion of which he had given notice, for accurate returns of the number of officers and men belonging to the infantry, the cavalry, and the artillery, who had been embarked at different ports of this country and Ireland, for Spain and Portugal. He also wished to have an account delivered in of the expenditure, under the different heads, of money, arms, clothing, &c. which had been sent at different times to the Spanish patriots. Also an account of the horses, waggon train, &c. He likewise wished to have a return made of the men, horses, artillery, &c. that had been relanded not in a disabled state, from the different ports of Spain. As the noble lord understood there would be no objection to the returns he called for, he should merely trouble the house with moving for them. The noble lord then proceeded to move, "That an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying that his majesty would be graciously pleased to give directions that these different returns be laid before the house."

The Earl of Liverpool had no objection to the motions of the noble lord. He only wished him to bear in mind, that accurate returns, such as the noble lord has called for, could not be immediately forthcoming. It must be some time before the different regimental returns could be regularly made; and he only rose to state, that whatever delay might occur, should not be imputed to any unwillingness fully to meet the object of the noble lord's motion.

The question was then put on each of the motions, which were agreed to.

[PORTUGAL.] The Earl of Buckinghamshire rose, not for the purpose of bringing forward the motion of which he had given notice for this day, but to express a wish that he might be permitted to withdraw it for the present. He had received information from different quarters, which he feared was but too correct, that the French had re-entered and re-occupied Portugál. It was for his majesty's ministers to say whether such was the case or not, for they no doubt must have received advices of such an event. It was of the utmost importance in his mind that Portugal should be restored to its legitimate government, for should the enemy get permanent possession of the posts of Portugal, and of the fortresses of that country, it would be

no easy matter to calculate the dangers that must arise from such possession, both to the interests of Spain, and to the security of these kingdoms. He should not now press the discussion of these points, but wait till the real state of Portugal should be accurately ascertained.

The Earl of Liverpool rose, not to detain the house for any time on the topics alluded to, by the noble lord; that indeed would be irregular, as there was no motion before the house; but merely to state in answer to the noble lord's question, that his majesty's ministers had received no account of the French having re-entered and re-occupied Portugal. He was as deeply impressed as the noble earl could be, with the importance of Portugal, in the hands of an ally to this country, and with the dangers that might arise from its falling into the hands of an hostile power. He should only say, that on all occasions, he should be ready to furnish any information in his power on that interesting subject, as were his majesty's government, to enter into the fullest discussion and investigation of every point, connected with matters of such importance.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

month, 3,126,500l. For wear and tear of ships for ditto during the same period, at 11. 19s. per man per month, 3,295,500l. For victuals for ditto during the same period, at 21. 19s. per man per month, 4,955,500l. The hon. gent. then observed, that the house would learn with satisfaction, that the number of seamen now serving in the navy, covered entirely, if it did not exceed, the number which the committee had just voted.

On the question that a sum of 591,600l. should be voted for Ordnance for the number of men voted,

Sir C. Pole could not suffer this subject to pass, without expressing a hope, that his majesty's ministers entertained a dis position to regulate the course of proceeding at Doctors' Commons. It was his opi nion, that the offices of king's advocate and king's proctor ought to be divided. He did not mean to object to the vote of any sum for the navy; but he must add, that he should like to see those who were to manage the expenditure of it, such as ten commissioners of the navy and of victualling, selected from amongst naval men. The practice, as well as the whole system of selecting officers of the army for such offices, he deemed altogether improper, as the appointment of persons not acquainted with naval affairs, to such situations, could not but be most mischievous. In the estimates then under consideration, he lamented that he did not see any provision made for the protection and support of the orphans of marine officers, and hoped that before the end of the session, some establishment, corresponding to the Compassionate Fund for the army, should be instituted for the navy. This he looked upon as a proper time for mentioning the subject; and if it should not be taken up by his majesty's ministers, in whose hands it most properly ought to be left, he should feel it to be his duty to submit the matter to the house in the course of the session.

Friday, February 3. [NAVY ESTIMATES.] Mr. Ward moved that 130,000 seamen should be employed for the year 1809, including 31,400 royal marines, which were voted accordingly. The hon. gent. then stated, that the Estimates for this number of seamen and marines were precisely the same in amount with the estimates of the last year, though it had been thought desirable to make some alterations in the comparative amount of some of the branches. The allowance for wear and tear was last year taken at three pound per man, whilst the provision for victuals was estimated at 17. 19s. only per man per month. The latter estimate had been found to fall greatly short of the actual expenditure, whilst the wear and tear fell considerably below the actual estimate. The committee would therefore be aware of the propriety of endeavouring to reduce both to an amount that should be nearest the truth, and this he proposed to accomplish by taking a guinea from the allowance for wear and tear, and adding [CONDUCT OF THE DUKE OF YORK.] to the allowance for victuals. The follow- Mr. Wardle, previous to going into the ing sums were then moved by Mr. Ward, Committee of Inquiry into the Conduct of and voted by the committee: For wages his royal highness the Duke of York, wishfor 130,000 seamen and marines for thir-ed to correct the error to which he had alteen months, at 17. 17s, per man per luded yesterday, in his former evidence.

The sum was then voted; after which, on the motion of Mr. Huskisson, two several sums of 10,500,000l. and 1,500,000!. were voted to be raised by exchequer bills, to pay off similar sums of exchequer bills issued last session, and now outstanding and unprovided for.

The Speaker informed the hon. member, that the time for offering any thing relevant to his former evidence, would be, when the house should have resolved itself into a committee. The matter then immediately before the house, was the notice the hon. gent. had yesterday given, of a motion for certain Papers or Books, from the Office of the Commander in Chief.

After a short conversation, which led to the omission of a part of Mr. Wardle's original motion, the following motion was agreed to: "That the proper officer from the Office of the Commander-in-Chief do attend the Committee of the whole House, appointed to inquire into the Conduct of his royal highness the Duke of York, with the Book containing the Applications for Purchase by Subaltern Officers, within the period in which Captain Maling had his three Commissions given to him.'

The house having then resolved itself into the Committee, Mr. Wharton in the Chair,

Mr. Wardle begged to call the attention of the committee to the correction he had to make of his former evidence. He had on the former night stated that he had not seen Mrs. Clarke on Tuesday morning, though he had waited a considerable time in her drawing-room for the purpose of seeing her. On recollection, however, he found that it was on Monday he had waited a long time in the drawing-room, and that on the morning of Tuesday he had seen Mrs, C. for a few minutes, as well as in the evening, as he had before stated.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that in the explanation of the hon. member, there was some ambiguity, in as much as the words" as I before stated" might be construed to the correction of the former evidence now first given as well as to the former statement of the honourable gentleman.

Mr. Wardle declared that he meant the words" as I before stated" to apply solely to the interview which he had with Mrs. Clarke, for a few minutes in her drawingroom, on Tuesday evening, and which he had stated in his former examination.

On the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the questions and answers relative to Mr. Wardle's interviews with Mrs. Clarke on Tuesday, were read from the notes of the short-hand writer, from which it appeared, that in his former examination Mr. Wardle had fallen into an error, which he had in this instance corrected, namely, by stating that he had not

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You came there in your carriage? 'I think so: but I am not very positive. I have been so constantly in the habits of going there that it is impossible for me to say: but I rather think I was in my carriage..

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Do you recollect how long you were there? Upon my word I do not, or else I would answer most fully; but to say positively that I can name a time, it really is not in my power.

At what hour of the day did you go there? Upon my word I cannot exactly say; I think the first time I saw Mrs. C. on Tuesday was early in the morning.

About what time? Upon my word I do not know the hour; but I remember going down in her carriage with her to the end of the King's Road.

On the Tuesday morning? Yes, on the Tuesday morning.

You called upon her in the morning? Yes. At what time in the morning did you call upon her first? It was after breakfast; I should think about eleven or twelve o'clock. I do not speak positively.

Was it at that time you called upon her in your carriage? No, it was not; I think I walked there.

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How long did you stay with her on that occasion when you called there, having walked there? To the best of my recollection, there were a parcel of workmen putting up looking glasses, and things of that kind, in the house: and I do not think I was there more than a

short time.

Half an hour? Upon my word I cannot say; if it is of any consequence, I will endea

vour to recollect. I rather think to the best of my recollection, but I speak without certainty to these points, that her carriage was at the door, I am not certain.

did.

Did you go out with her in her carriage? I

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