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hands, giving due weight-but not too much
weight-to the opinions of the clergy."
Again, the right rev. Prelate said-

"Such a state of things ought not to be allowed to continue, and judging by the mode in which the other intricate questions of clerical subscription had been dealt with, and the way in which, when the Commission had commenced its sittings, one difficulty after another had in that case disappeared, there was good reason to hope that, if this question were dealt with in a similar mode, the difficulties which now beset it would likewise disappear."

would perish everlastingly, and he was now required to say of the same man, and before the same congreation, that he committed the body of his dear brother to the ground, earth to earth, ashes to ashes, in the sure and certain hope of the resurrection to eternal life and happiness in the world to come. Was ever an unhappy clergyman put into such a position? How long it took Mr. Gueritz to decide I am unable to say, but I have no doubt that, his metropolitan, and that he would in so feeling he was acting up to the advice of doing have the approbation of every honest the law sooner than pronounce these words man, he determined to brave the penalties of over an Unitarian; and so he did brave the penalties of the law, and the law fell upon him.

Here, then, was the first step towards the solution of this question-that their Lordships should pass this Resolution. No one could deny the truth of it; no Government would venture to disregard it. The Government would advise Her Majesty to issue a Commission, as she did in the case of clerical subscription, and they would defend himself, and so he was cited before He did not, because he could not, not have long to wait before this question the proper tribunal, admonished, and conwould be finally and satisfactorily disposed demned to pay the costs of the suit. All of. Their Lordships could easily imagine comment upon such a state of things was that, crying as were the evils arising from simply superfluous. He appealed to their this state of things twelve years ago, when Lordships whether he had not made out a this clerical memorial was presented at case of urgency; he felt confident what Lambeth, they had become even more their response would be. aggravated since. Instances without num-clergymen would their Lordships require to How many more ber of painful scenes which had occurred at have fined before it would please them to funerals in consequence of nothing having move in the matter? been done in the meantime, such as those their validity to their being statute law, The Rubrics owed described by the right rev. Prelate on a and this state of things was caused by the former occasion, had been made known to Legislature; by legislation alone could it him, one of which he had mentioned to the be healed. House; but he would forbear to cite more divest themselves of their responsibilities. Their Lordships could not than one, and that one of very recent date, He, therefore, invited them to pass this with which probably many of their Lord-Resolution. The right rev. Bench appeared ships were familiar. He meant that of to be powerless in the matter; it was Colyton, in Devonshire. The incumbent of Colyton, it appeared, was a man, as he necessary the Government should take it understood, of irreproachable character, up, and, if they passed this Resolution, no Government would venture to disreentertaining rather extreme High Church views, and consequently zealous for the gard it. law. Therefore he did as the law directed: thirteen times he was required to read the Athanasian Creed thirteen times every year, with the assistance of his congregation, he consigned three parts at least of the human race-past, present, and future -to everlasting perdition, including, of course, the Unitarians, against whom he believed this creed to have been specially directed. Their Lordships, then, would judge of this clergyman's feelings when, walking out of his church after reading this creed-on Whitsunday or on Trinity Sunday-his sexton informed him that one of his parishioners, a Unitarian, had died, and was to be buried in a day or two. Mr. Gueritz had just pronounced that this man

Moved to Resolve, That, in the opinion of this House, the Evils arising from the compulsory and almost indiscriminate Use of the Burial Service tention of the Legislature.-(The Lord Ebury.) of the Church of England demand the early At

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY said, he fully appreciated the wish which the noble Lord had expressed to place the question which he had brought forward in his hands. So far as related to his Motion, however, he must say that he did not think it was desirable to bring a matter so important forward at so late a period of the Session, when so many of their Lordships, and the great majority of the Episcopal Bench, were necessarily absent from town attending to other duties. It was

not at that moment necessary to enter into | his Motion, on the understanding that when an elaborate discussion of the question, some matters connected with the Rubrics of because it would require more considera- the Church were submitted to the consition than it was likely to receive at this deration of a Commission this subject period of the Session, and could not be would not be ignored. settled in the manner proposed by his noble Friend. He ventured to say that the injury of the case was not such as his noble Friend had represented. No conscience would be relieved, no difficulty would be got over by the adoption of this Motion, and, therefore, he invited their Lordships not to adopt a Resolution which, as far as any effect was concerned, would be entirely nugatory.

EARL GREY thought that the noble Lord (Lord Ebury) had made out sufficient reason for his Motion, for according to the acknowledgment of the right rev. Bench the present state of the law was sucb as to occasion considerable inconvenience. Was it fitting that they should maintain a law which conscientious men either broke, and thereby made themselves liable to penalties, or induced them to do that which was directly contrary to their consciences? When they remembered how long it was since his noble Friend first brought this subject under the attention of Parliament

EARL GRANVILLE said, it was perfectly impossible for those of their Lordships who recollected what had passed in that House on previous occasions on the subject of the Burial Service not to ac--when they remembered what little hope knowledge that there was a grievance. It was undoubtedly an anomalous state of things that clergymen were induced to disregard the law from conscientious motives, and were sanctioned in so doing by those who had authority over them, and that no attempt should be made to amend it. At the same time, when a noble Lord called upon Her Majesty's Government to come to the assistance of the Episcopal Bench, all he had to say was that Her Majesty's Government were ready to assist in any manner they could. They were only anxious that the right rev. Bench would be able to suggest some mode of dealing with the evil complained of. The Government were quite prepared to issue a Commission upon the subject, but he understood that the right rev. Prelates would not be satisfied with such Commission unless another question connected with the Rubrics of the Church were referred to it. With regard to the present Motion, he must say he thought it undesirable in the last week of the Session that their Lordships should be called upon to pass a Resolution condemning an evil, and stating that it ought to be remedied, but which did not suggest a remedy. He therefore hoped his noble Friend would withdraw his Motion.

was held out of any remedy being applied to an acknowledged evil, unless that House pressed for the introduction of some measure, it appeared to him that there was hardly the faintest hope that any remedy would be applied. It appeared to him that the time had come when something might be done on the subject, and that the Resolution of his noble Friend was one of the most moderate character that could be brought forward. Therefore he could not recommend him to accept the advice that had been given to him to withdraw his Motion. He did not think there was anything in the objection as to the time it was introduced.

LORD EBURY said, that upon a previous occasion he had withdrawn a Resolution which he proposed because he received an assurance from the right rev. Bench that they would take up the question. The right rev. Prelate who presided over the diocese of London especially said, that he might be sure that the subject would not be allowed to drop. The subject had, however, been allowed entirely to drop. He could not take the responsibility of the existing state of things. His Motion had the concurrence of the most rev. Prelate who presided over the Northern Province of the kingdom. Unless he received an assurance that a Commission would be issued, he must certainly divide their Lordships upon it.

THE BISHOP OF LONDON said, the only remark he wished to make was in relation to what had passed on a former occasion. It appeared likely that a Commission was to be issued to consider certain Rubrics of the Church, and he thought in such a case On Question? Their Lordships divided: it would be desirable that this matter should-Contents 20; Not-Contents 43: Mafall under the consideration of that Com-jority 23 :- Resolved in the Negative. mission. He thought that his noble Friend

would be acting properly by withdrawing

Westminster, M.

Chichester, E.
Cowper, E.

Grey, E. [Teller.]

Minto, E.

CONTENTS.

Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

what trite observation that rank had its duties as well as its rights, no Peer need take his seat unless he chose, and if he did not take his seat he would not have to serve on these Committees. Perhaps

Ponsonby, L. (E. Bess- he might be told that there was no diffi

Harris, L.

Leigh, L.

Methuen, L.

Mostyn, L.

borough.)

Torrington, V.

Sandys, L.

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Malmesbury, E.

culty in getting Peers to do all the work that was necessary; but the great majoClan-rity of their Lordships never attended at all, and those who did the work could not help feeling that some injustice was inflicted upon them. In the early part of the Session there was always a very small attendance, and the speaking was almost entirely confined to the Members of the Government and one or two other noble Lords. There was a great number of Peers who had nothing else to do, and they might as well come down to that House as go anywhere else. He had no doubt that the fear of being called upon to serve on Private Bill Committees kept many of them away, and probably if the duty of serving upon such Committees were better distributed that fear would operate less than it did at present.

Ely, Bp.
Gloucester and Bristol,
Bp.
Peterborough, Bp.
Aveland, L.
Boston, L.
Boyle, L. (E. Cork and
Orrery.)

Brodrick, L. (V. Mi-
dleton.)
Clandeboye, L. (L. Duf-
ferin and Claneboye.)
Colchester, L.

Colville of Culross, L.
Denman, L.
Egerton, L.
Hatherton, L.
Heytesbury, L.
Raglan, L.

Moved, "That there be laid upon the table a List of those Lords who have served on Private Bill Committees during the present Session of Parliament, and the Number of Times that each Lord has served; and to call the Attention of the Saltersford, L.(E. Cour- House to the Question, whether it is not desir

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Nelson, E.

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town.)
Sherborne, L.
Silchester, L. (E. Long-
ford.) [Teller.]

Sondes, L.
Wenlock, L.

COMMITTEES ON PRIVATE BILLS: EARL COWPER rose to move for a list of those Lords who had served on Private Bill Committees during the present Session of Parliament, and the number of times that each Lord had served; and to call the attention of the House to the question whether it was not desirable that it should be compulsory upon each Member of the House, with certain exceptions, to serve, if required, on a Private Bill Committee once during each Session of Parliament? The arrangement of which he suggested the adoption worked admirably in another place, and he believed that it would operate with equal advantage in their Lordships' House. It might be objected that while no man need become a Member of the other House, and consequently become liable to the performance of these duties unless he pleased, their Lordships were born Peers. But, apart from the some

able that it should be compulsory upon each Member of the House, with certain Exceptions, to serve, if required, on a Private Bill Committee once during each Session of Parliament ?"

EARL GRANVILLE said, that the noble Earl (Earl Cowper) could, after the speech. which he had just delivered, have no excuse for not in future taking a more prominent part than he had hitherto done in the debates of their Lordships' House. He believed that the system which the noble Earl had recommended worked very well in the other House, and that arrangements were made at the commencement of each Session by which the convenience of Members was consulted as to the time of the year at which they would prefer to serve upon Committees; and he was afraid that the practice followed in their Lordships' House operated injuriously by throwing the work upon a small number of Peers. Practically there was no difficulty in getting a sufficient number of Members of their Lordships' House to form the necessary Committees, but there was in the minds of those who acted a feeling that they were doing the whole of a work of which others ought to take a share. He heartily agreed in the observations of the noble Earl as to

EARL STANHOPE entirely acquiesced in the observations of the noble Lords who had preceded him, that the present system under which the private business of their Lordships' House was conducted was most unsatisfactory. It was not fair that noble Lords who were perfectly capable of discharging the duties of the House should absent themselves, and so throw the burden altogether upon the few Peers who did attend, putting, at the same time, an undue pressure upon the noble Lord the Chairman of the Committees. But this was not a matter which ought to be decided hastily, and the suggestion of the Lord President was a good one; and he hoped the noble Earl who had made the Motion would endeavour next year to have the matter referred to a Select Committee.

the general thin attendance of noble Lords | between the two Houses, some improvein the House. A very distinguished Mem- ments might be effected. ber of the other House, who was present at a great debate, when the Benches on both sides of their Lordships' House were crammed with Peers, said, "What a power the House of Lords would be if they constantly sat in numbers such as this!" The younger Peers were sometimes reluctant to attend the meetings of their Lordships' House from the fear of being called upon to serve on Committees out of their course; and that fear aggravated by their belief that if they consented to serve an unequal share of the burden would be thrown upon them. He (Earl Granville) had been informed by several Lords, not anxious to shirk business, that it was this fear that caused them to absent themselves. The best course for the noble Earl to adopt would be to confine his Motion at present to asking for the Return mentioned in his Motion, and next Session to move that the subject should be referred to a Select Committee, by whom the question would be carefully inquired into.

THE EARL OF LONGFORD said, it was formerly the practice in their Lordship's House to enforce the attendance of Peers by penalties, but this was dropped from finding that it did not work well, and the present plan of voluntary attendance had been followed of late years. He thought that some means should certainly be adopted to secure the attendance of Peers on Committees, but at the same time wished to point out that the health of the Peers who did attend ought to be taken into account by the introduction of improvements in the Committee rooms. He had written to the First Commissioner of Works to point out the necessity for the windows being opened at the top, but regretted to find that, with the exception of one small room, this had not been done. The Committee rooms were inconvenient and badly ventilated. If a Committee were appointed next Session it might mitigate the evils complained of.

LORD EGERTON said, he agreed that the best course to be adopted would be to move for a Committee on the subject. If their Lordships required any change they must so arrange that more business should be originated in their House, and not allow the great mass of the private Bills to be commenced in the other House, and then thrown upon them all at once late in the Session. Perhaps, if a Committee were appointed, and a conference arranged

LORD REDESDALE said, no Member of their Lordship's House would be more relieved by the change proposed by the noble Earl (Earl Cowper) than himself; but, at the same time, it was his duty to express his entire dissent from the alteration suggested. As one who had been a Member of the Nomination Committee ever since 1838, he could say that the present system had worked well for the public, and that the Committees of this House where the attendance was voluntary, gave more satisfaction to the public than the Committees of the other House, where the attendance was compulsory. Nothing could be more unsatisfactory than compulsory attendance. He recollected that in one instance, where a noble Lord had been compelled to attend a Committee, he was found to be perfectly useless, and he was afraid if they were to make the attendance generally compulsory, the public would be the sufferers. It would be impossible to commence a very much larger number of Bills in their Lordships' House, as at the beginning of the Session there were but few Peers in town, and it would be difficult to obtain good Chairmen of the Committees. At present the division of the business was regulated by agreement between the two Houses, and such an amount of business was appointed to commence in their Lordships' House as would occupy them until the time when the business from the other House would begin to come in, which was generally shortly after Easter. The business from the House did not come in all at once, as had been stated, but came in a constant stream, so that their Lord

ships were kept steadily employed from about Easter down to the end of the Session. He must also say that a large number of their Lordships did sit upon Committees. After all, the question was, in what manner Chairmen of Committees were to be found; for, if there was not a good Chairman of a Committee, the compulsory attendance of Peers would be most unsatisfactory. It might seem an unpleasant duty to try to form a Committee; but, in his twenty-seven years' experience of the duty, he must say that he had never met with an uncivil or uncourteous reply, and though the duty was laborious and ungracious he was still willing to discharge it. In reply to the suggestion of the noble Lord that young Peers were prevented from attending their Lordships' House by the fear of being compelled to serve on Committees, he might say that no Peer was required to serve more than once in each Session unless he showed a disposition to serve more frequently. If the attendance was compulsory there could not be less than one service, and no pressure was put on any one at the present time. For these reasons he thought that the voluntary service was preferable; and that if any one had a right to complain, it was the Chairman of Committees. He hoped the noble Earl would amend his Motion by striking out its compulsory clause, and by adding to the Return he moved for the number of days each Lord had sat.

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY said, the Return moved for by the noble Earl should include the names of those Peers who had sat upon Select Committees, as well as those who had sat upon Private Committees. A great deal of business was done in Select Committees. The Return, as proposed, might lead to the supposition that the Peers named in it were the only Peers who had served on Committees, which would be unjust. He agreed with the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees that the attendance should not be made compulsory.

EARL COWPER said, he would adopt the suggestion of the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees, and would omit from his Motion the passage making the attendance of Peers compulsory, and would move that the Return should include the number of days on which each noble Lord had sat on one of their Lordships' private Committees.

Motion amended, and agreed to.

Ordered, That there be laid upon the Table a List of those Lords who have served on Private Parliament; and the Number of Times that each Bill Committees during the present Session of Lord had served; and the Number of Days he sat on every such Committee.-(The Earl Cowper.)

TITLES TO LAND IN INDIA:
QUESTION.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE inquired, Whether the Governor General of India has taken steps to inquire into Titles to Land in other Parts of India similar to those which were adopted in the Province of Oude? He believed that, above all things, it was desirable in legislating for India to lay down no particular rule for the government of the whole country; but that, in the regulation of each portion, regard should be had to the usages, customs, and laws already existing. It should also be remembered that the talookdars were men of wealth and position.

LORD DUFFERIN said, that whenever a newly acquired territory passed under the jurisdiction of the Indian Government it was the practice to dispatch a staff of revenue officers and surveyors for the purpose of effecting what was commonly called a settlement of the territory-that was to say, of measuring the various areas which were about to become the subject of the land tax, and ascertaining the parties who were responsible for the payment of that tax. That course was taken, first, for the purposes of fiscal assessment, and, secondly, in order to record existing rights. The agricultural population of India was divided, as in Europe, into two great classes-landlords and tenants. But the class of tenants was again subdivided into three distinct categories-tenants at will, tenants with rights of occupancy at fixed rates lower than the market rate, and tenants. who had rights of occupancy at what were called fair or marketable rates-rates determined by the arbitration of a Court of Justice. The rights of tenants of the last class, although not of great importance, were still of considerable value. But those of tenants at fixed rates were, no doubt, of a very valuable character, and were transferred by the tenant to his descendants. Consequently, it was the custom of the Government of India, whenever a settlement was effected, to send an officer to record, not only the rights of the proprie tors, but those of the occupying tenants. As early as 1836 instructions to that effect were given by Lord Auckland, and after

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