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enable us, after the example of England, , is not from any fear of public obloquy, to raise within the year, those supplies that I avoid what he calls the only stateswhich the expenditure of the coming year man-like measure of finance. I am not will call for, but that its produce would ashamed to avow that I value popularity; fall far short of those taxes which it will I should be ashamed of myself if I did be my duty to propose as provision for not; but it is that popularity which folthe Loan. They will be, I lament to say, lows one's actions, and not which one's of unexampled amount; but I shall not actions follow. If the necessities of the shrink from my duty in proposing, and I country should still unhappily continue, trust the country, even by these discus- and we are to be placed either on a war sions, will not be unprepared to bear expenditure, or obliged to continue in them; this will afford a permanent pro- that state of military preparation of which vision for the interest of ihat debt which the expenditure is as great as that of war, we must contract, while the proposition of it may be my duty to propose to Parliathe hon. gentleman would give us only a ment, a measure as strong as that which tax for a single year-a tax which, if he now I deprecate; from the performance is sincere in hoping that it will last in / of that duty I shall not shrink. I shall England only for the period of its present find in the public necessity my justificaproposed enactment, he must also hope tion, if indeed any justification be necesthat we should be obliged, in Ireland, to sary in the eyes of those who have never repeal it; and I would ask him, where the been backward when they could prove public creditor was to look for his per- their attachment to the common cause; manent security, or if he would be then when they could participate in your ready to suggest other measures to supply dangers, or contribute to the glory of the the necessary deficiency of our revenue ? | empire. Sir, I shall say no more--what
I think, Sir, that I have stated enough my feelings are on this subject is of little to justify me in resisting the hon. gentle-moment; but Ireland awaits with hope man's motion, and in calling upon the and with confidence the decision of the House to resist it. I have shown, I hope House of Commons. to the satisfaction of the House, that the Sir Jolin Newport declared, that the tax being proposed in England for one right hon. gentleman had so ably vindi. year, it could not be taken as a perma. cated the state and exertions of Ireland, nent provision for payment of that debt that he had left him little to say. In 14 which we must create. I think I have a years since the Union, Ireland had brought right to say, that this measure which he into the Exchequer of the country consisuggests, could not be fairly in operation derably upwards of 60 millions, or more until long after that period at which we than four millions and a half annually, by hope to see its expiration in Great Britain. taxes, exclusively of what she had been I have endeavoured to prove that so large called on to produce by way of loan. He a proportion of your duty in England trusted the House would not voie an must be affected by the deduction which abstract proposition of this nature, as it in common fairness must be made, that would throw a firebrand of irreparable even you would have to find fresh means, injury between both countries, which to no inconsiderable amount, to compen- would be most fatal to Ireland. sate that deficiency; and I am firmly con Mr. Peel made a few observations in vinced, that without reference to any local support of the arguments of his right hon. or political circumstances of the country, 1 friend, (Mr. V. Fitzgerald). If a tax the creation of a system so widely com- were proposed, the collection of which plicated, and of such accumulated ex. was not feasible, it was doing nothing pense, would detract so much from the whatever for the country. He thought the internal produce of the tax, that, if I had Property-tax of England might operate been satisfied to take this alone as the for Ireland as an Absentee tax. provision for the present year, in the es: Sir H. Montgomery said, he had in all pectation that it would be sufficient, I the stages opposed the renewal of the should have been deceiving both Parlia Property-tax, as the means of entering ment and myself. In what I have ven into a new war, which he deprecated as tured to offer, I have taken a view only ruinous to the finances and security of the comparative of the motion of which the country. He agreed with the Chancellor hon. gentleman has made, and of the of the Irish Exchequer, that persons commeans to which I shall myself recur. It petent to assess and collect the tax ia Ireland were not to be found, and that, meant the control of the Executive iherefore, it was' particularly unfit to be Government, he cordially acceded. But introduced into Ireland. The right hon, it would not be contended for by the the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ire- right hon, gentleman, that the public land had estimated the annual amount of monies, emanating from the public, and conabsentee income, which was spent in this signed in the Bank of England as the bankers country, and from which Ireland derived of the public, were also placed out of no benefit, at three millions annually, and the control of the House itself. He would the amount of the interest of debt payable allude to a particularinstance of the exercise to English creditors at four millions; the of this control by the House ; he meant, Income-tax on which, amounting to in the case of the money deposited in the 700,0001. a year, ought in justice to be hands of the Bank for the payment of the carried to the credit of Ireland, wbich public dividends. In 1791, Mr. Pitt, would make good the present deficiency having reason to think that there was a in the revenue, and provide for the loan of great accumulation in the hands of the the year. In reply to the Secretary for | Bank of England of unclaimed dividends, Ireland he said, there was this difference in / made a claim for a portion of them in the the tax proposed in the Irish parliament | name of the public. This claim was on absentees and the present tax, that the resisted by the Bank, as a breach of faith first was receivable in aid of the Irish with the public creditor. But Mr. Pitt revenue, and the present tax was payable had the firmness to persist; the Bank into the Treasury of England.
were obliged to give way, and 500,0001. Mr. Grattan observed, that he had was then taken from the funds in the heard with the grealest pleasure the able hands of the Bank, and applied to the arguments of ihe right hon, the Chancellor public service. In 1798 a similar arrange. of the Exchequer for Ireland, and that he ment took place, by which 500,0001. was entirely coincided in opinion with him on again applied to the public service. the subject.
After he had stated this, he could not see Mr. Bankes replied. After which the that there was any thing to preclude the House divided :
Legislature from making any arrange
ment respecting the public money in the Noes ........................ 78 hands of the Bank, they might think fit, Majority ............ -73 whether emanating from the Consolidated
Fund, or any other source. He had been HOUSE OF COMMONS.
asked by the Governor of the Bank, what
measure he intended to found on the Papers Wednesday, April 26.
in question, if the House should grant MOTION RESPECTING Balances in the them? It would be a sufficient answer if Hands of the Bank OF ENGLAND, &c.] he were to say, that it would be premature, Mr. Grenfell said, he understood that if not presumptuous in bim, were be to state the production of the Papers, wbich he / what he intended to do with those papers had moved for on a former evening, re- before examining them. But if the specting the Balances of Public Money in amount of balances in the hands of the the hands of the Bank of England, would Bank were now what they were in 1807, no longer be opposed by the right hon. that is, between 11 and 12 millions, he gentleman opposite. He did not feel it had no hesitation in stating, that be should necessary at present to enter at any great endeavour, either by a reduction of the length into the subject; but he hoped the balances or by some regulation, to make House would indulge him a very few them productive of interest and advantage minutes while he submitted one or two to the public. · Whether he should propose observations to them. It had been slated any such regulation himself, or leave it to the other night, by the right hon, the persons better qualified, or whether be Chancellor of the Exchequer, that by far should be precluded by the Bank Loan the greatest proportion of the Public Act from making any such attempt, were Balances in the hands of the Bank of questions with which he would not then England would be found, on examination, occupy the House. But he had no hesito be derived from the Consolidated Fond, tation in giving it as an opinion, not bas. and that they were, therefore, beyond the tily adopted by him, that some regulation control of the Public. To this doctrine, was practicable, nay easy, provided the if by the control of the public was Bank of England, taking an enlarged view
of its public duty should lend itself to the month, between the 1st of February 1807 objeci. Nay, the object was practicable and 1st of April 1815, inclusive, resulting even on the supposition that the Bank of from payments under the head of Customs, England should be so far unmindful of the and of all other branches of the public duties which it owed to the public, as to revenue, stating the average balance in oppose the arrangement. He hoped, after each year, made up from the said days. what he had now said, that no gentleman | 2. An Account of the Balances of Cash in would contend that there was any ibing the hands of the Bank of England on the impracticable in the application of this Ist and 15th days of each month, between regulation to the balances in the hands of the 1st of February 1807 and the 1st of the Bank of England; and provided along April 1815, inclusive, resulting from the with this there should be a reduction of Postmaster-general's account with the their charge for the management of the Bank, stating the average balance in each public debl, the effect would be lo produce year, made up from the said days. 3. An a saving of between five and six bundred Account of the Balances of Cash in the thousand pounds per annum, which was hands of the Bank of England on the 1st equal to the interest on a loan of ten and 15th days of each month, between millions, still leaving an ample and liberal the 1st of February 1807 and 1st of April allowance to the Bank of England. He 1815, inclusive, belonging to the different wished to allude to one other point, the departments of the Government, including statement of the income of the Bank of the Balances of the Accountant-general England, derivable either from the trans- of the Court of Chancery, and staring the actions whicbibey carried on for the average balance in each year, made up public, or as shown from the documents from the said days. 4. An Account of on the table of the House. The first head the Exchequer-bills and Bank-notes depoof the income of the Bank was that de. sited by the Governor and Company of rived from the circulation of their paper. the Bank of England as Cash in the chests The amount of this circulation at one of the four Tellers in his Majesty's receipt period was not less than 31 millions; but l of Exchequer on the 7th of August 1807, he was aware that the amount had been and on every 281h day subsequent to that reduced. He was not, however, giving period, down to the 1st of April 1815. an exaggerated statement when he fixed 5. An Account of the Balance of the the average at lwenty-seven millions. He | Account of the American Commissioners, took the income from this source at and of all other Public Balances not par1,390,0001. The next head of income was ticularly specified in the four preceding the balances in the hands of the Bank. | Accounts with the Bank of England, on The amount in 1807, was 11,500,0001. the 1st of January in each year, from the Deducting 3 millions, lent to the public year 1808 to the year 1815, inclusive; without interest, there remained in their distinguishing the amount under each head hands 8,500,000l. The profit from this respectively. 6. An Account of the total was 425,0001. The third head was that amount of Unclaimed Dividends in the which they were paid for managing the hands of the Bank at the periods immepublic debt. He had already stated this diately preceding the payment of the at 267,0001. to which must be added an quarterly dividends since January 1807. allowance for a house, of which he did | 7. An Account of all other Allowances not know the meaning, of 40001. making made by the Public to the Bank, or in all 271,0001. The fourth head, con charged by the Bank against the public, sisting of interest paid by the public to the not specified in an Account respecting the Bank, amounted to 330,0001. The amount / charge for the management of the public from all these sources was 2,376,0001. debt, ordered to be laid before the House He had confined himself to all those on the 19th instant, for transacting any sources of income, either derivable from other public service in the years 1813 and the public, or appearing in the papers | 1814, describing the nature of the services before the House, without any reference and the amount charged thereon in each to their private business. The hon. gen- year respectively." tleman concluded with moving, that there | The Chancellor of the Exchequer was disbe laid before the House the following | posed to coincide in the motion. The Papers: 1. " An Account of the Balances | hon, gentleman's statement of the profit of Cash in the hands of the Bank of Eng. / of the Bank was exaggerated; he had not land on the 1st and 15th days of each allowed for a great variety of charges. With respect to the analogy contended. He admitted that the expenses of the for in the case of unclaimed dividends, it establishment of the Bank were to be de. did not hold. The amount of such divi- ducted from the profits, but could not dends might be called dead cash, and agree with the Chancellor of the Exchecould by no arrangement become the pro. quer that it was necessary for the Bank to perty of the Bank. Government were the hold one shilling in reserve to answer de. supposed general heirs in all such cases; mands; for those demands were always whatever had no claimaut, was considered paid in paper since the passing of the to belong to the public at large.
Restriction Act. Mr. Ponsonby said, the agreement which The motions were agreed to. had now taken place between the two sides of the House, had been anticipated
HOUSE OF LORDS. by him from their approach to one ano-1 ther in point of numbers on the late vote.
Thursday, April 27. He did not think that for a long time a Treaty SIGNED AT VIENNA ON THE motion had been brought forward so likely | 25TH OF MARCH.] Marquis Wellesley rose to produce solid benefit to the public. He and said: hoped it would be understood that there My Lords; I rise for the purpose of was no disposition to infringe upon the moving that the Order of the Day for our agreement actually subsisting between taking into consideration to-morrow the Government and the Bank; but he hoped conduct observed by Congress towards it would be understood also, that no new Saxony be discharged. It is some time agreement would be entered into till the | since I distinctly stated to your lordships, House had an opportunity of considering that in my opinion the best course to be these papers.
pursued with respect to this subject, was Mr. Mellish said, he had voted against for his Majesty's ministers to give to Par. the production of the accounts, only be liament a full and detailed explanation of cause he thought it unjust and unfair that the whole of the transactions which have the Act passed so late as March last, by taken place at Vienna, instead of waiting which the public faith was pledged, should until partial intelligence should be ex. be in any iota disturbed.
tracted from them by any such inotion as Mr. Peter Moore said, it was a most pre. that which it was my intention to make to. posterous proposition, that the public morrow. Finding, however, that his Mashould be obliged to pay the Bank interest jesty's ministers did not think proper to for three millions lent to them out of their adopt this suggestion, and conceiving that own money, and leave a balance of nine the particular treatment of Saxony de, millions besides. Such a doctrine did not manded early and serious attention, I gave suit the present times, when all classes thať notice of a motion which I am now were borne down by the weight of taxes. desirous for the present to withdraw. I am The hon. gentleman then went into the desirous to witbdraw it, my lords, in the consideration of the audit of the public first place, because, from the tendency of accounts, for which 60,000l, was paid, with a paper which has been laid on your lord. out preventing an accumulation of the un- ships' table, I am inclined to bope that audited accounts.
at no very distant period his Majesty's Mr. Manning said a few words upon the ministers will be induced to afford Parliasecurity the Bank possessed in an Act of ment spontaneous information on the subParliament, which pledged the faith of the ject. In that expectation, I am led to House,
| postpone my motion for a few days, in Mr. Baring expressed his wish that the order to ascertain whether that will or subject should be postponed to the next will not be the case. But, my lords, I am session. He complained that Mr. Gren rendered still more desirous to withdraw fell's statements were exaggerated.* my motion for the present, by the very
Lord A. Hamilton supported the motion. serious reflections which have occurred to
Mr. Marryatt thought it the duty of the me, and which must have occurred to House to take care that the Government every one of your lordships, on the perusal did not enter into disadvantageous engage- of the document which has recently been ments with the Bank.
| laid before Parliament-I mean the Treaty Mr. Grenfell shortly replied, denying signed at Vienna on the 25th of March;that he had ever intended to interfere with document, on the fundamental principle of the contract now subsisting with the Bank. which, I will abstain from making many observations, but which is so obscure in had passed in France--were we not aware itself, and yet is of such enormous magni- of all that had passed at Naples—and yet tude in point of importance, that the con had not his Majesty's ministers acceded sideration of it has wholly occupied my to the Treaty of Vienna? If ever, there. mind ever since its production, with a fore, my lords, there was a case in which view to endeavour to discover its meaning, his Majesty's ministers violated their good and the precise nature of the objects which faith towards Parliament, by calling upon it has in contemplation. I do hope, my Parliament to vote unuer circunstances lords, that his Majesty's ministers will | which they omitted explicitly to state, it explain to us the principle on which this was this case. I have thrown out this obinstrument proceeds. For my own part, servation, because the neglect on the part I think it a point which presses so impe. of his Majesty's ministers to communicate ratively for immediate and active conside- information on that occasion, is one of the ration, that I should not conceive that I reasons which induce me at present not to was acting with due respect to your lord. intrude upon your lordships my motion ships, or with due regard to the interests respecting Saxony. But this is not all. of the country, were I to attempt to divert | As I have before stated, I am mainly in. the attention of Parliament to any other fluenced in this determination by the con. topic until this has been disposed of. | templation of the Treaty, the substance of
My Lords, when we voted the Address which is before your lordships. to his royal bighness the Prince 'Regent, My lords, I repeat, that this Treaty is on the 7th of April, I concurred in that so obscure as to be almost unintelligible. vote, because I understood, from the terms When that which I considered, and which of the Address itself, from the explanations I shall ever consider as a great public of the noble lords opposite, and from the calamity, the return to France of the pregeneral turn of the debate on that occasion, sent Ruler of that country took place, there that the only question for our decision were two modes in which the occurrence was, whether or not Great Britain was might bave been treated by his Majesty's placed in such a situation, by the return Government and their Allies. They might to France of the present Ruler of that have treated it as a revolt against the legicountry, as to render it necessary or ad-timate government of France, involving visable for us to arm ourselves by sea and in it consequences menacing in the bighest land, and to be thus prepared to act in degree the tranquillity and independence concert with our Allies for the security of of Europe. On the policy of such a course the tranquillity of Europe. The question of proceeding I will not touch; but at of war or peace was expressly reserved | least it would have been intelligible. The by the noble earl opposite. My lords, Iolber mode in which the subject might have too much regard for the noble earl, have been treated, would have been by and too much respect for your lordships, divesting themselves of all passion, by to indulge in language that might be avoiding the appearance of being scared deemed too strong upon this subject; but or terrified, and by calmly and deliberately without violating truth and sincerity, it is looking at the state of the world in order impossible to abstain from declaring that 10 place this question before themselves good faith was not observed towards your for determination. Whether, with a full lordships in the transactions of that even comprehension of the evils wbich were ing. What other feeling can we entertain, threatened by the return of Napoleon when we understand that, two days prior Buonaparté to power, it was nevertheless to the vote of the 7th of April, his Majes. not practicable to put Eurpope in such a ty's ministers were in possession of the situation as to render impotent any agTreaty of Vienna, and had actually regressive attempt by France on her transolved on a war, the arrangements of quillity. My lords, I refrain from arguing which were even completed ? I know, my the policy of either of these modes of prolords, that the noble earl told us on a ceeding. Neither has been adopted. The recent evening, that circumstances had middle course has been pursued. This occurred in France between the signature country and the Allies have preferred of the Treaty at Vienna and the motion what, I presume, they think the line of for the Address in this House, which might management. They have carefully avoided have occasioned a change of sentiment on all the advantages which might have been the part of the Allies. But, with regard derived from either of the proceedings to ourselves, were we not aware of all that which I have described, and they have