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to be the sentiments of the Powers with | take away its dangerous qualities." Now whom we were in alliance. We ought what was it that the noble lord proposed. not to consider that an instrument under He proposed nothing less than to take one set of circumstances, necessarily in-away all equality of discussion to subject volved the same conclusions under another. his opponents to bring forward a motion At the proper time he would readily state on grounds which might not be correct; all that would be necessary for his justific and to give himself an opportunity of cation.
taking us by surprise, and obtaining the Mr. Whitbread.-I wish to say one word | House's approbation of that Convention, more. A single ray of light has broken on a statement made by him in the course in upon us from the speech of the noble of debate ; which approbation might afterlord. The noble lord says, that when he wards influence their future judgment, sees no notice on the book, he shall al. He begged to ask the noble lord, if the ways conclude that I have no grounds for matter was to be fairly discussed, wbetber censure. I may have sufficient grounds it would not be much more desirable that. for censure; but I have also had sufficient the House should have an opportunity of experience not to adopt such a measure, discussing the Treaty in a correct state. knowing as I do the extent of the influence | The noble lord might lay it informally. of the Crown.
upon the table, as he had done the papers Mr. Methuen was proud to declare, relating to Genoa and Sweden. The Treaty without any particular partiality for Mi. of Chaumont had also been laid in suba nisters, that this was a time when every stance before the House, although it had man ought to join heart and hand in their not been ratified, and the same course support. He firmly believed that the noble might now be pursued. This was the fair lord enjoyed the entire confidence of the and only way of meeting the question, country; and he also believed that that unless the noble lord meant to obtain the confidence would not in any degree be approbation of the House by stratagem. shaken by the conduct of the gentlemen If, as the noble lord had said, the genuine opposite.
Treaty had been so misrepresented, was Sir James Mackintosh said, he could not it not the more Decessary that a correct follow the hon. gentleman who spoke last, statement of its contents should be fura in bestowing his approbation alike under nished? He therefore put it sincerely and any circumstances without any exception, respectfully to the noble lord, whether, and without any guard. Here he begged even for his own sake, it would not be ad. to be understood aş differing from him. visable to produce an accurate statement He agreed in the position, that all hearts of the substance of the Treaty? and hands should be united on an occasion Mr. Melhuen denied that he bad given like the present; but then our hearts and any abstract applause to the conduct of bands ought to be guided by reason and lord Castlereagh-in this instance it reconscience. The noble lord himself had ceived his full approbation. He thought advanced what was little less than treason he might fairly accuse the other side of to the constitution, when he talked of the the House with giving abstract and systeresponsibility of ministers. The House of matic opposition to every measure of Commons were a great council to give ad Goveroment, ander whatever circumvice, and they were not to be precluded | stances it might be adopted. from the exercise of that right under any Lord Castlereagh observed, that for the idea of tbe ministers responsibility. But reasons he had before stated, he should the noble lord's mode of arguing had a decline laying the substance of the Treaty tendency to destroy all free and deliberate before the House, unless a distinct motion discussion. What would be the conse- were made upon the subject; and then quence? How could any member bring he could state his opinion, and adopt forward a motion on the subject? The such conduct as he might deem expenoble lord would move an Address to lay dient. a copy of the Convention before the House. Lord Millon begged to know on what Now what was the Convention ? Accord- day the Treaty in question bad been reing to the noble lord, the one we had seen ceived by Government. contained substantial inaccuracies. This Lord Castlereagh answered, that hedocument appeared so doubtful in its should be prepared to give every informeaning as to require an explanation on mation on a future day. ,, the part of the Crown of Great Britain, to Mr. Beanct inquired whether that part
of the published copy were contained in , he should not think it inconsistent with the authentic document, in which the his duty to lay the substance of the Treaty Allies were made to declare that they upon the table. All he would say at would " bring to justice all such persons present was, that he should be prepared as shall have joined, or may hereafter on Monday to give the hon. gentleman a join, the party of Napoleon ?” He wished distinct answer. . . to know whether that provision had been | Mr. Whitbread said, there was a great ratified by the British Government? difference between the present language
Lord Castlereagh had no objection to of the noble lord and that which he had state, that that part was decidedly in- before held. He would move for the correct-substantially inaccurate.
papers on Monday, to ascertain if the Lord Milton asked, whether this Treaty noble lord would give them or not. He was in the hands of ministers before the wished the question to be answered be. 7th of April, the day on which the noblefore the House went into the committee lord had obtained the Address ? : of supply, but he did not wish to plunge · Lord Castlereagh replied in the affirma- unnecessarily into a discussion that might tive, and added, that he was prepared to be injurious to the country. . contend that there was nothing at all Mr. Ponsonby remarked, that in former inconsistent between the terms of the instances the substance of a treaty had Address and of the Treaty.
been communicated to enable the House Mr. Tierney wished to know if the noble to decide on the policy on which it was lord had any objection to the substance of founded, before a communication could the Treaty being given?
formally be made. Would the noble · Lord Castlercagh had no objection to a lord do so on the present occasion? The motion being made to that effect by any noble lord, if he had no objection to enhon. member who might think such a gage to give them the substance of it on measure desirable.
Monday, could enable them to enter upon · Mr. Whilbread wished the noble lord | the discussion of some of the topics conto state if, in saying he had no objection nected with it; but he protested against to such a motion, he desired it should being called upon to give an opinion on a · be understood that he would grant the treaty before it was accurately known to papers if such a motion were made. If them. This the noble lord himself must he now moved for the substance of the feel would be most improper, for nothing Treaty, would the noble lord grant it? could be so absurd as to demand an opi.
Lord Castlereagh said, no, not now, as it nion of the House on that which had not was totally out of the common course of been laid before them. proceeding to give treaties before the rati- Lord Castlereagh was sure no one was fications were exchanged. He could not more disposed than himself to hail the consent to such a motion on the instant. , pacific tone which had suddenly broke in This refusal for the present was due to his upon the House. He was glad to find the colleagues; and while he felt he owed | wishes of gentlemen opposite were what much to them, he could not but feel he | they now proved to be. It was often owed still more to the representatives of practicable to communicate to the House the Allied Sovereigns now in this country. the substance of a document, before the
Mr. Whitbread regretted that the noble document itself could be produced in an lord had not saved the time of the House official form. In reply to the inquiry of by earlier making such a statement, the right hon. gentleman, as to whether Was he now to understand, that if, a he would be bound to give the substance motion were made on Monday for the of the Treaty on Monday, he could only substance of the Treaty, it would meet refer him to the answer he had given to with the compliance of the noble lord ? the question of the hon. gentleman (Mr. If so, he would of course move for it, and Whitbread), that on that day he could then the subject would be fairly and give a distinct answer on this point. He clearly before the House.
agreed with the right bon. gentleman, that Lord Castlereagh, said that he would lit would be wrong to call for the sense of enter into no compact. He was surprised the House on a treaty before that treaty that the hon. member should so long have could be produced. He had no intention remained in the dark; for the whole course of calling upon the House to pronounce
of his (lord Castlereagh’s) reasoning was ( an opinion, or had he supposed the hon. • intended to show, that at the proper time gentleman could do that when he sugo gested to him that he could bring a I passed that night, he should abstain from motion on the subject. He had not ex. so doing until the second reading. pected him to call for an opinion on the Mr. Grenfell was favourable to the reTreaty; but he had thought that he knew newal of the Property-tax for another enough of it to found a proposition on it, year, but he thought certain modifications which should go to advise the Crown to were necessary. It did not appear to him pursue a line of policy different from that to be just that a person of small income in which that Treaty originated, if he -say from 2001. to 500l. a year, should thought it his duty to give the Sovereign pay as much to this tax, or at least be such advice. On Monday he would an taxed on the same scale as those whose swer the question of the hon. gentleman annual incomes amounted to as many without discussion, and in the mean lime thousands. In the next place, it was not he trusted it would not be considered un- right that incomes arising from trades and becoming conduct on his part, if he seized professions should be taxed as high as the opportunity the intervening time af- those which were derived from freehold forded, to possess bimself of the senti- and other property. He thought also ments of the representatives of the Allies that tbe requisitorial powers of the com. of the country.
missioners ought to be limited. If such Mr. Whitbread observed, that as the modifications were made, he should feel it noble lord had been the God of the Storm, bis duty to the public to support the Bill now he was metamorphosed into the in the present emergency. Genius of the Calm. From what the noble Mr. Elis thought the Bill ought not to lord had at first said, no man could have pass in its present state. He doubted if anticipated what had recently fallen from any modifications would make it what an his lips. Now he was perfectly ready to hon. alderman conceived it might be grant every thing that was required-No, madera comfortable measure; but he no! from lord Castlereagh). Yes, he was convinced such modifications might would grant all that was wanted the be introduced as would bave the effect of substance of the Treaty-(No, no!). causing it to be cheerfully borne by the Well, then, the fact would be known on people in the present circumstances of Monday, and he had no disposition to the country. A proposition which should raise a new storm by further contention. bave ibis effect, would, he thought, come
Lord Casilereagh. I cannot see that there with peculiar good grace from the hon. is any matter of difference between us alderman (Atkins), and should not fail to now. The hon. member does not, how. have bis support. ever, quite approve of my conduct; and I Mr. Gordon cautioned those hon. genam not sorrr. Por it, because there is no- tlemen who had last spoken, against giving thing that I am so much afraid of as his the Bill their support in the present inpraise.
stance, on the supposition that the modi. Mr. Whitbread. The fear expressed by fications which they recommended would the noble lord is quite as unfounded as be subsequently adopted, as the Chan. my praise would have been if I had ever cellor of the Exchequer bad declared bestowed it; for the fact is, that he never bimself against such an alteration of the received a scintilla of applause from me measure. There was a determination to during the whole course of his political overpower all that might be said against
it by that irresistible argument a majority. The question on the adjournment to or the amendment of the hon. member Monday was then put and carried. for Hertford, would have been carried on
a former eveniog, asking, as it did, only PROPERTY.Tax Bill.). The Chancellor time sufficient to ascertain whether or not of the Exchequer presented a Bill to re- the measure was necessary. He thought vive and continue the duties and contri- the public were duped by ministers, seeing butions on the profits arising from pro- that they had the Treaty of Vienna in perty, professions, trades and offices, which their possession, when they told the House expired on the 5th of April 1815. On that an alternative still existed between the motion, that it be read a first time, peace and war. He should oppose the
Mr. J. P. Grant, stated, that he had | Bill in every stage, and he boped the intended to oppose the Bill in every stage, House would now divide upon the first and to have taken the sense of the House reading. upon it; but in consequence of what had Sir John Newport hoped the House
would be divided on every stage of the tax. Nothing was more erroneous than Bill. He besought those who had re- to imagine, that if it were imposed for one cently presented such numerous petitions year, it could afterwards be immediately from their constituents against ihe Pro- taken off. It was supposed by some that perty-tax, to come forward and say whe- it would give the means of acting with ther or not they had changed the opinions vigour, and that thereby its duration would which they then avowed. He, for one, be short. Good God !-how, after the exhad not changed his mind on the subject,perience of twenty years, could an exand should therefore give the Bill all the cellent understanding be led to believe, opposition in his power.
that the duration of a renewed income-tas Mr. Benson noticed the call made by and a renewed war would be short? Easy the right hon. baronet, for those who had as it was to plunge into war, experience changed their minds to come forward, and showed how difficult it was to come out said he had been much pleased with the of it. Let the House look at the last war conduct of the hon. member for Liver- | with America, which it was prophesied by pool, who had stated the inhabitants of some would be a short one. We had no that great town to have changed their choice there : though he always consi. sentiments on it. He believed nine-tenibs dered our Orders in Council as leading to of the country had changed in the same it, yet, in the immediate steps to war, he way in its favour.
always thought America the aggressor. Mr. Wynn thought the tax, whether we | She should certainly have stopped when went to war or remained at peace, was she heard of our repeal of those Orders, , necessary, and be did not see that the But that war was much longer than most
public service conld be provided for in people expected, and different in its results. any other way. He knew of no substitute Mr. Alderman Atkins was against the for it, which would not be more oppros. revival of the Property-tax, unless some sive. The assessed taxes proposed by modifications were introduced. He wished the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though the Chancellor of the Exchequer would less productive, would, he thought, be refer the subject to a committee. He did found more vexatious to the people. not wish to make the tax less productive,
Mr. Baring was of opinion that the last but he wished it to be so altered that it speaker but one would find himself mis should be felt less by persons of limited taken if he could canvass the whole and moderate incomes. The gentlemen country, with respect to the sentiments of in the landed interest, who had lately rethe people on the Property-tax, which ceived a favour of the House, would, he was still considered a most obnoxious im- | hoped, step forward on this occasion, and post, on account of the annual disclosure offer to bear a portion of the burthen, of private affairs which it involved. Not which would otherwise fall on the middling withstanding this, he felt it to be his duty and lower classes of society. to vote for it. If he saw any thing in the Mr. W. Smith thought the proposition conduct of ministers that gave him alarm, of the hon. alderman so reasonable that it he might not do this; but conceiving as ought to be acceded to; and this not being he did that vigorous exertions on the part adopted, he should vole against the Bill. of this country, and on that of the Allies, If it were only to be revired for one year, gave us the best chance of being able to he should not care much about the prodo without the tax altogether, he felt posed modifications, but the probability bound to give the Bill his support. With was, that it was now to be saddled on the out it there was no chance of getting rid country for ever. He referred to the of it soon, and of returning to a state of commencement of the old American war, peace and comfort. As it was to be which it was said would be ended in a enacted but for one year, he thought it week or a fortnight, to prove the folly of would be better that the old machinery supposing that the war now about to be should be revived, than that new expe. commenced would be ended in a year, dients should be devised; as reviving it especially when the means which France in its former state for one year would | possessed were so important, if a calculabest satisfy the public it was not intended tion were made only of the number of to be a permanent measure.
prisoners returned. · Mr. Ponsonby lamented bis difference of The House divided : Yeas, 79: Noes, opinion from his hon. friend, who spoke 17: Majoritý, 62.-The Bill was then last. He retained his objections to the read a first time. (VOL. XXX.)
I (3 E)
List of the Minority.
but he (Mr. Huskisson) thought it was
| sufficient for every necessary purpose, Atkins, alderman Piggott, sir A. Grant, J. P. Prittie, hon. F.
and, therefore, it appeared to bim that Howorth, H. Ridley, sir M. W.
no further information need be called for. Halsey, John Romilly, sir S.
Sir John Newport said, that the Chan. Montgomery, sir H. Smith, Wm.
cellor of the Exchequer had told them, Martin, H.
Western, Charles he would move the second reading of the Moore, P. Wilkins, W.
Property-tax Bill on Monday, on which Nugent, lord
TELLERS. day it should be remembered, the latest Newport, sir J. H. G. Bennet
information which he had called for, Ponsonby, rt. hon. G. R. Gordon.
could be laid on the table. Now, how On re-entering the gallery,
the right hon. gentleman could suppose Sir John Newport was on his legs, point- that any hon. member could come pre. ing out to the gentlemen opposite the pared to debate the question on Monday, propriety of acceding to a motion, for the when documents, connected with it, were production of documents on the subject of only placed in their hands on that day, ihe Property-tax, which, we understood, really surprised him. He had no objecfrom what fell from him, he had made tion to leaving the word districts' out of during our exclusion, and, in opposition bis motion ; but he conceived it was right to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer the produce of the Tax from the various had moved the previous question. The classes' on whom it operated should be right hon. baronet, argued strongly against clearly understood. The House, by the House being called on to give an looking at such a document as that which opinion as to the renewal of the Tas, in he called for, would see whether the pro. its old form, until proper information had duce of the Tax had increased or dimi. been afforded, with reference to the pro- pished, during a series of years, in any duce derived from it, during a series of of those classes that were subject to it, years, from the different classes of society The Chancellor of the Erchequer said, bis who were subject to its operation. If in- statement merely went to this that all formation on such a necessary point were the information called for by the right withheld—if gentlemen agreed to vote hon. baronet, except that relative to the without proper data being submitted to last year, would be, if possible, laid on them, on which they might form their the table by Monday next. Much use. opinions—then, he contended, they be- ful information would be derived from came rather the agents of the ministry, those documents. than the honest guardians of the rights of Sir John Newport said, he had, over and their constituents.
| over again, stated, that he was not wedded Alderman Atkins argued, that the infor- to any particular mode in which the nemation which the Chancellor of the Ex cessary information might be laid before chequer had already laid before the them, so that the information was pro. House, was as copious as the right hon. duced. All he wished for was, that the baronet could fairly demand.
right hon. gentleman would give him, in Mr. Huskisson coincided in the senti- substance, the produce of the Propertyments of the last speaker. The informa- tax, with reference to certain distinct tion already placed on their table was, he classes, up to the latest possible period. conceived, all that could at the present That which the right hon. gentleman apmoment, be expected. At the same time, peared to think of no moment, he (sir J. he did not profess to know, on what docu- Newport) conceived to be of the utmost ments, or in what manner, the right hon. consequence. He must, therefore, persist baronet wished or intended to form his in calling for those documents, which he opinion. The worthy alderman had al- conceived to be necessary to justify the ready said, and said very justly, that the vote he should give on the renewal of the accounts were produced up to a period, | Property tax. . beyond which it was impossible they · The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, could at present be brought. The rigbt it would be very difficult to produce the hon. baronet had already information, accounts exactly in the shape called for lying on the table of the House, on which by the right hon. baronet. he might form his judgment. He com-/ Mr. Gordon was unwilling to suppose, plained, indeed, that it was too general that his Majesty's ministers would press it did not enter sufficiently into detail ; | forward, with unnecessary haste, any