Mr. W. Smith said, that certainly revenue was a great object with the Postoffice; but it was unquestionably a matter of the greatest injustice, that persons so deeply interested as those were who had connexions of interest or affection in so distant a part as India, should not only be subjected to the many grievous inconveniences and anxieties they must of course suffer, but that they should be made to pay for it into the bargain. He mentioned an instance within his own knowledge, of a clergyman with a large family, a friend of his, and a considerable part of whose family was in India, who had mentioned to him the numerous vexations and anxious doubts he had suffered from this novel and unmatured plan of raising a new branch of revenue; and could not help giving it as his opinion, that it was highly unjust that the Post-office, which was originally instituted for the purposes of public convenience, should be converted into a mere instrument of revenue. Sir J. Mackintosh said, that India was the only part of our colonial possessions with the communications and correspondence of which he was at all acquainted, and he thought it was not only unjust to charge a rate of postage on letters for which no certain conveyance was yet provided, though the act had passed nearly a twelvemonth, but it was also extremely cruel and impolitic to cut off the means of conveying affectionate remembrances to those who had left their native country, and would be a means of cutting asunder the knot which, as long as it remained entire, could not fail to make the natale solum the grand object of affectionate recollection, and so place the mother country as the object of most pleasing remembrance, while absent, and of the most ardent wishes to return to it as soon as circumstances and opportunity would permit. He therefore hoped the postage would be suspended till the plan (VOL. XXX.) and accommodation could be made ready. As it was situated at present, he repeated it was both impolitic and unjust, and tended to tear asunder the tenderest and most powerful feelings of human nature. Mr. Lushington said, it was premature to judge of the operation of the Act as yet. The plan was in great forwardness, and would be completed as expeditiously as possible. The Petition was ordered to lie on the table, After which Mr. Tierney then presented another Petition, from the parents, friends, and relatives of those persons who bad quitted this country to reside in India; which was also ordered to lie on the table. NELSON ESTATE.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, that the House do at its rising adjourn to Monday. Mr. Whitbread said, before the question was put, he begged leave to call the atten. tion of the House to a subject which he thought deserving their consideration. It was well known to the House, that a large sum of money had long since been voted by the House, for the purpose of provid ing a suitable mansion, &c. for the heirs of the late lord Nelson: that such money had been long ready; but a proper estate, &c. could not be fixed on. Lately, however, it seemed that a place which was deemed in every respect answerable for the purpose had been agreed upon by the commissioners, and it was hinted that an additional sum of 9,000l. would be wanting to complete the purchase. He had been informed that within a very short time a memorial had been presented to the Treasury, from a Mr. Kemp, stating, that he conceived a purchase had been made of an estate, mansion-house, &c. which belonged to him in the county of Suffolk, which had been viewed by the present lord Nelson, who had taken down Mr. Bolton with him, for the purpose of ascertaining its value, and that both of them having approved of the whole of the premises, the price had been finally fixed, and the sum was somewhat within that granted by Parliament for the purpose of remunerating the services of the gallant officer on whom the title of lord Nelson had been conferred. He thought, therefore, the House should hesitate a little before they would sanction a grant for an additional 9,000l. when a claim was put in for the money agreed on as a purchase of an estate agreeable to the present lord Nelson and his advisers, and which (3 D) would come within the sum granted by Parliament. tainly consider it my duty to be prepared to meet him in any discussion on the sub The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, heject. would explain the subject to the House on a future day. TREATY BETWEEN THE ALLIES SIGNED AT VIENNA.] On the motion, that the House at its rising do adjourn till Monday next, Mr. Whitbread observed, that feeling as he did, from a consideration of all the circumstances, from a consideration of the alleged parties, from a consideration of the supposed conditions, that the paper which had that day been published in a partial manner, in the Times, purporting to be a Treaty between the Allied Powers, signed at Vienna on the 25th March, could be no other than a forgery; he nevertheless could not refrain from asking the noble lord the question. If it should turn out not to be so, this most extraordinary fact would appear-that it was actually signed at the time when the noble lord declared in that House, that the question of peace or war was wholly undecided! Lord Castlereagh said, he certainly felt it his duty to avoid, if possible entering into an argument on subjects which could not with propriety be yet brought before the House. But with respect to the question of the hon. gentleman, if he conceived that it was his duty to offer an advice to the Crown on the subject to which it related, and intended to bring that subject before the House in a regular way, he (lord Castlereagh) should consider that circumstance as a justification for his giving an answer to the question. - Mr. Whitbread. Then the inference from what has fallen just now from the noble lord is, that the Treaty which has appeared in one of the papers of this day is a genuine Treaty ? Mr. Whitbread.-The noble lord has said that the Treaty is not yet ratified by all the Allied Powers; but we find now that the substance of it is true. The noble lord has told us that there are inaccuracies; but then he has not told us what the nature of these inaccuracies are; whether they are all inaccuracies of language. I shall pause till I see what these inaccuracies are; because I cannot conceive how any person, if the Treaty which we have seen is accurate in substance, could possibly put his hand to it. I would ask those who expect that we should abstain from all argument on the present occasion, to read that Treaty. Lord Castlereagh.-I think that I have shown a sufficient disposition to candour in my conduct towards the hon. gentleman this evening, however much he may be indisposed to give me, or those who act with me, credit for candour on any occasion. I have told the hon. gentleman that if he can show that any practical purpose can possibly be answered by it, I shall be prepared to answer his question. when I have given him this answer, upon what principle does he conceive himself entitled, contrary to all the rules of Parlia ment, to enter into a premature discussion, or endeavour to throw out calumnies not supported by argument, against any proceedings of which he disapproves ?-Icertainly consider such a mode of proceeding a gross violation of propriety. Mr. Whitbread. The noble lord has thought proper to call me to order, in a speech which is itself extremely disorderly. I contend, that I have a perfect right to deliver my sentiments on this subject, on the question of the adjournment of the House. I have a right to express my approbation or disapprobation of the Treaty, on the avowal of it by the noble lord, and to oppose the adjournment of the House, if I think proper. The noble lord has accused me of making use of the language of calumny. It is impossible to speak of the proceedings of the Congress Lord Castlereagh.-Does the hon. gentleman mean to say, that it is his intention to 'call the attention of the House to it? If so, I have no hesitation in admitting that a Treaty was signed at Vienna on the 25th of March; and that the newspaper alluded to by the hon. gentleman, with some inac-in terms of calumny. I might, if I thought curacies, contains the substance of that Treaty. The Treaty, however, is not yet ratified by all of the Allied Powers, and therefore not in a state to be submitted to -Parliament. But if the hon. gentleman thinks proper to call the attention of Parliament to it in a regular way, I shall cer proper, move, that the House should sit to-morrow. But as the noble lord has avowed the Treaty, I am rather disposed to put the question-That the supplies be withheld, which by our former votes we expressed our resolution to confide to the Crown. I wish farther to ask the noble the House will not consent to vote any supplies on the principle of this Treaty; but I am not sure, when we are once engaged in war, even under this foolish Treaty, that we shall not be disposed to grant them. Lord Archibald Hamilton asked, whether any discussion now could be productive of greater harm than what had been done, by the appearance of such documents as the public had lately seen? What would, be the use of the information promised by, the noble lord, when the country was already involved in war? No discussion could be so injurious to the noble lord as the belief entertained by the public, that his conduct was such as it appeared to have been from these documents, which had created a disagreeable impression against him throughout the whole country. lord, whether the Treaty has not been ratified by England, if it has not been ratified by all the other allied Powers? Because the duke of Wellington, if the Treaty has not been ratified by England, must have acted on his own authority. We ought to know the instructions which have been given to the duke of Wellington-or whether he has acted without any instructions at all. The noble lord has acknowledged, that the Treaty which we have seen is substantially correct, and he has also owned that it contains inaccuracies. What sort of inaccuracies are they? Are they inaccuracies of language? ["Substantial inaccuracies," said lord Castlereagh, across the table.] No; it seems they were inaccuracies of another kind. Will the noble lord give us the Treaty, or tell us whether it has been ratified by Great Britain? Will he put me and the House in a condition Mr. Ponsonby.-I am not sure, from of knowing how much we are to except what fell from the noble lord, whether this from, or add to, this Treaty, which we subject is soon to be brought forward in have seen in an article from Vienna in one, such a shape as will afford us an opportuof the papers? I conceive, Sir, that my nity of discussing it; for if I am silent conduct has not appeared to you as dis-upon the present occasion, it is from the orderly, from your not interrupting me. I conceive that I have a right to move, that the House should not adjourn even till Monday next, till the House should come to a knowledge of this document. circumstance of the subject not yet being before us in such a shape that we can take parliamentary notice of it. Is it the intention of the noble lord to bring the Treaty soon before us in a shape that we Lord Castlereagh.-The hon. gentleman can take parliamentary notice of it? If may bring forward his motion as early as such is not his intention, I must proceed he thinks it his duty to do so. I have no to some other course. I do not choose to right to complain of him for this; but trust myself at this moment with the exwhat I complain of, is his attempt to enter pression of the sentiments which arose in into that sort of unsupported observation my mind when I read this instrument. I which cannot be said to be a fair examina- certainly did not think it was genuine. tion of the subject, and which can lead to But if the noble lord will not bring the no practical good. The hon. gentleman business before us in a shape that will has asked me, whether the Treaty has been enable us to discuss it in a parliamentary ratified on the part of Great Britain? I way, we must proceed to its discussion have no hesitation in returning for answer out of the parliamentary way. There is to the hon. gentleman, that his royal highnot a man in the House who has read that ness the Prince Regent, with an explanation of one of the articles, did intend to ratify this Treaty with the Allied Powers. Mr. Whitbread.-I wish, Sir, to put this question in a shape that the House may take it into consideration without delay; because, by adopting a different line of conduct, we may find, when we wish to express our disapprobation, that it is too late, when we are already involved in an unfortunate and calamitous war. Does the noble lord intend to involve the country in a war first, and then ask the House to strengthen the hands of Government? Our situation will be very different between one alternative and the other. I am sure paper, who will not say that the House of Commons will abandon its duty, if it does not take the earliest opportunity of offering its advice to the Crown on this subject. Lord Castlereagh.-It is not out of the course of parliamentary usage, to bring forward a motion for the discussion of this Treaty, in the shape in which the right hon. gentleman finds it; and Parliament may, if it thinks proper, give its advice to the Crown, on the supposition of the Crown being on the point of entering into any engagement which it may consider injurious to the interests of the country. What I mean to say is this, that it would be improper in me to bring the document not be guilty of such indiscretion, as to suffer the noble lord to proceed until he has plunged the country into a situation without remedy-when he will come before us with the whole weight of his responsibility, and which responsibility, I hope, the House will make him feel is not a mere parliamentary term, but a word of real weight; and that after talking of it, and vapouring about it for years, the time is now come when we shall turn the name into the thing, and make him feel what it really is. Under these circumstances, my proper course is, in a constitutional and parliamentary manner, to prevent the supplies from being granted, till I know the situation in which the country is. before Parliament in the unratified shape in which it is, and when it is not binding on those Powers who are the parties to it. This would be taking the sense of Parliament on a step which could not come properly before it, in relief of our own responsibility. His Majesty's ministers, however, take a more correct and constitutional line. We have obtained the sanction of Parliament for the adoption of precautionary measures, but no sanction for any other measures: and for these we rest on our own responsibility. But it will be allow ed that it is always competent to the ministers of the Crown to advise war if they think proper, subject to their own responsibility. His Majesty's ministers would be acting in a most unconstitutional, and not only in an unconstitutional, but a pusillanimous manner, if they endeavoured to extort from Parliament in an imperfect state of information, a sanction for those measures which they might ultimately adopt. But if any honourable member conceives that advice ought to be given to the Crown, not to act in a manner which he conceives is likely to compromise the country, and lead to measures injurious to our own interest and the general interest of Europe, it is certainly competent to such hon. gentleman to raise the question in the House, and to bring it under discussion. But it is not competent to his Majesty's ministers to take the initiative of bringing it before Parliament, and of taking the sense of Parliament on imperfect information. Mr. Whitbread. The noble lord has used a new word, which he seems to have borrowed from Congress; for I do not recollect to have ever heard the word initiative' made use of in this House before. If he will not take the initiative, as he is pleased to call it, in this measure; in the choice of difficulties to which we are reduced from that circumstance, knowing, as we do, the deep plunge made by his Majesty's Government towards war, without the question being regularly before it, the House must pause before it grants any further supply for what are called defensive preparations, when it knows that the Government will convert those measures of defence into measures of offence-and into a war which will be prosecuted not only in the most disgraceful, but the most hopeless manner. My duty calls on me to propose an adjourn ment of the House, till the noble lord is able to come before us with the terms of this Treaty; and I hope Parliament will Lord Castlereagh.-The hon. gentleman' will never find me disposed to shrink from any responsibility which I have incurred. With respect to the course of the hon. member, I must say that it certainly does not consist in arming the executive government with those powers which are necessary for it in the present arduous situation of affairs. If the hon. gentleman is not disposed to concur in those measures which his Majesty's Government have thought advisable in the present situation of the country, it is not on the subject of supply that he ought to raise the question→ be ought to raise it on its own merits. If the hon. gentleman is determined to persist in this course, it is a proof that he shrinks from the merits of the question. [Hear! Hear! from the Opposition.] I repeat it again—it is a proof of his shrinking from the merits of the question-while I, on the contrary, have this night afforded him every facility for bringing the question forward in a regular manner. Every person must be convinced that the Treaty cannot be laid before the House in its present state by his Majesty's ministers, without their acting in a manner inconsistent with the duty which they owe to their country; and I consider, therefore, the measure which the hon. gentleman has chosen to pursue, with the view of ob structing his Majosty's Government, as only granting with a bad grace what must at last be granted, and rendering that strength which the House have committed to the Crown inadequate to its object. If the hon. gentleman is sincere in the intention which he has announced of impeaching me; and if he wishes at the same time to strengthen the Executive, let him bring the question forward on its own merits; but let him not make this a pretext for weakening the arms of the Executive Go-, bility if he does not give in this document. vernment in the arduous crisis in which the country is at present placed. Mr. Whubread added, that when the supplies were granted, both the noble lord and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, that there was an alternative of peace or war; but it was now found that there was no alternative; and if any farther support were given, it must be for offensive operations of the most desperate nature. The ministers who could be parties to such a treaty as this, he would no longer consent to entrust with the supplies of the country. He denied that the noble lord had given him any facilities; but the House must go to the discussion of the question, trusting to be informed by the noble lord what difference there was between the real and the unauthenticated copy of the Treaty. It was not to the noble lord that he should go for advice how to conduct himself in Parliament, at the time when he should wish the House of Commons to pass on the noble lord that sentence which his conduct had justified. When will the noble lord give it to us? When it will be too late for us to save the country from destruction-from a renewal of a war which has sunk our finances to the state in which they now are which has ground to the dust every class of the community. Then the noble lord will give it when it is too late. As to the boasted responsibility of the noble lord at such a period, it would be nothing worth. What compensation would it be then to the country, even if we were to follow the noble lord to the block? Before war is determined on, the House ought to have an opportunity of interposing their advice. The course of my hon. friend is perfectly regular and constitutional. When Parlia ment has not sufficient documents to enable it to form a judgment, it is the only legal mode of preventing an abuse of power. When one sees ministers treating in a double sense, with the public-when we see ourselves on the point of a renewal of the calamities which were brought on us by the war of 1793, and involved again by the very same acts which were then practised; a war which has reduced every man's income to a third of its value, and then are told of the responsibility of mi Lord Castlereagh declared, that he had no wish to protract this conversation; but with respect to that species of taunt which had been so often thrown out against himself and the rest of his Majesty's minis-nisters, it is impossible to preserve our ters, he should only say, that whenever there was not a notice of censure against him entered on the books of that House, he should feel perfectly satisfied that, in the hon. member's mind, there was no chance of making such a motion with the least possibility of success. He would put it to the House whether they ought to listen to such opinions as had been that night stated. Sir John Newport.-I had a right when I dissented from my hon. friend (Mr. Whitbread) on a late occasion, to consider that there was still an alternative left-that war was not then determined on ;-but I now find out that I am duped by the noble lord, and that to the noble lord I ought not to have given credence; for the question which he told me was pending, was actually determined. The noble lord tells us now, that the Treaty, with some substantial inaccuracies, is correct. He now says, that we ought not to refuse the supplies which were given for an alternative, but which alternative did not exist. I can not very well conceive what the noble lord means by using the words "not shrinking from responsibility," because he is certainly shrinking from responsi tempers. Sir, I scorn such a responsibility. My hon. friend, whom the noble lord has thought fit to advise, has sat in this House infinitely longer than the noble lord himself; and he has done the duty of the country, unpaid, unsalaried, und unstipended, and the love and gratitude of his country will follow him wherever he goes. Lord Castlereagh said, he should not have troubled the House any further, if particular pains had not been taken to misrepresent what he had said. The noble lord repeated what he had said, as to the course that was open to the hon. gentleman, of giving advice to the Crown; and added, that he would peremptorily deny that any thing like delusion had been practised by his Majesty's ministers on a former occasion. They gave no opinion to the House on the degree of probability as to war or peace; but they had said, that the case was of such a nature as rendered it necessary for them to come to Parliament on their own responsibility. He would also deny that even now there was no alternative. The principle on which ministers placed the alternative was, that they would be mainly influenced by what they found |