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ther that day was convenient to the noble | Powers; and he was not aware that any lord, or whether the noble Jord, by some thing bad occuired to induce it to change communication on the part of the Prince that line of policy which had been so uniRegent, would prevent the necessity of versally approved of. With respect to that motion? At the time when he had the general advice of the hon. member, given notice of his motion, he had thought he trusted the House would leave that it extraordinary that no such communica question to the responsible discretion of tion was to be made on the part of the his Majesty's ministers; and as to the noble lord; but now, after the events opinion or remonstrance of the hon, genwhich had recently happened, it was still tleman, he trusted the House would feel more extraordinary that it had not been that it could not, and without meaning any thought expedient to make the fullest dis disrespect to the hon. gentleman, he would closure which could be made consistently say it ought not to have any influence with the public service, of the proceedings upon their conduct whatever. He trusted which had taken place at the Congress, the hop. gentleman would not object to without its being coupled with the fact the universal feeling which pervaded the that it was drawn forth by the motion of House on the subject of the present situaan individual member of the House of tion of France. The policy of this GovernCommons. He could not, as he saw the ment never had been to interfere in the noble lord in his place, refrain from pro- (internal concerns of that country; at the testing as he had before done at a iime same time they could not but feel, in when the noble lord was not present for common with the other nations of Europe, himself, as an individual, against concur- deeply interested in supporting a governring in any measures which might impli. ment which had contributed to give peace cate Great Britain in the civil war which to the world, in opposition to that power might now have begun in France, on ac- which now aimed at its subversion. He count of the landing of Buonaparté in that presuined the hon. .gentleman himself was country, for any object in which the inte: not an exception to this general feeling. rests of Great Britain were not immediately | As to what measures the government of concerned.
this country might think proper to take Lord Castlereagh observed, that not under circumstances which now threatened being in possession of the nature of the again to disturb the state of universal hon. member's motion, he could not offer peace, he was sure the House would not any opinion as to the propriety or impro. pardon him, if he were so far to forget his priety of postponing a discussion upon it. I duty, as to hazard any opinion on them. For his own part, he had no wish that it ! Mr. Whitbread said, he had no objection should be postponed ; indeed, he saw no to state the nature of his intended motion; reason for postponing it at all. He had it was for an Address to the Prince Regent only requested its being deferred to Wed for a communication of such part of the nesday, on account of his health; and he proceedings at Vienna, as could be made should be glad of an opportunity to give known without injury to the public service. ' any information which he could afford He still thought it extraordinary that the consistently with his public duty. He noble lord, on his return from an imporshould therefore be happy to meet the tant mission, would not make any comhon. gentleman on this ground, as soon as munication to the House until he was, as possible. He was not aware of any thing it were, arraigned before them, In bring. which this country had done to preclude ing forward his motion he should not him from bringing down such papers as he neglect to bring before the House those had alluded to, and accompanying them facts by which imputation bad been cast with any explanations that ought to be on the honour and good faitb of the councommunicated. This he thought would try, which the noble lord would refute if be more agreeable to the House than he could. If the poble lord succeeded in bringing down such papers as from the justifying himself, he (Mr. W.) should be present state of things could not possibly the first to acknowledge the error into be complete, and laying them on the table which he had been led by publications without any explanation at all. As to which bore the semblance of authority. the conduct of this Government, he was As to the affairs of France, he had not conscious that it would not deviate from alluded to them with any idea that he that spirit of good faith which had ever should have been attended to, but to proguided it in all its transactions with foreign test, and he again protested, against any
interference in the affairs of that country, I that his Majesty's Government have con. on behalf of one or other of the contend- sented to a reniission of the fine of 5001. ing parties.
and a reduction of the sureties to half the Lord Castlereagh said, that nothing could | amount ordered by the court, and to take be more unobjectionable than the motion the petitioner's recognizance for 1,0001. : of the hon. member, and the course which and that he is impressed with a due sense he meant to pursue. He appealed to the of this lenity shown to bim; but has still House, whether the communication being the misfortune to declare, chat, owing to withheld was not less extraordinary, than | the heavy losses sustained during his long would have been a communication on the imprisonment, be is still unable to give the part of the Crown, made before the Con- sureties required, except so far as relates gress had ended ? Was it not most extraor- to his own recognizance of 1,000l.; and dinary that such a communication could that the petitioner still continues to labour have been expected : It was proper also under severe attacks of disease, and his to remark, though he meant not to com- | general health is much impaired; and be plain of the conduct of the hon, member, therefore again appeals to the justice and that more questions had been put during humanity of the House to afford him such the progress of the negociations at Vienna, | further relief as to them shall seem fit, for, than it had ever been the habit of parlia. without such interference, the petitioner ment on any former occasion.
expects to terminate his existence within Mr. Whitbread said, that one of the ex. I the walls of his prison.” traordinary features in the case was the Mr. Addington stated, that the fine bad noble lord's appearance in his place. If been already remitted, and the sum rethe affairs of the Congress had not termi. quired from the two sureties reduced from naled, why had the noble lord returned ? 5001. to 2501. each, at the solicitation of a Or if his presence there was not necessary, worthy member (Mr. Alderman Atkins.) why had be gone thither? If nothing had Mr. Whitbread said, that the petition transpired on the subject of the Congress, acknowledged the lenity of the Crown, no questions would have been heard from but the petitioner was unable to find even him. His questions had been founded on the sureties now required. He hoped his public documents, naturally the subjects Majesty's Government would extend full of animadversion; and those documents mercy to this unhappy man, who had he should bring forward on Monday, as suffered a severe sentence, and a great matters of charge against the noble lord, aggravation of it. who, if it was possible, 'might refute them. Mr. Alderman Atkins joined in the
Mr. Ponsonby said, that unless the noble humane intreaties of Mr. Whitbread, and Jord thooght proper lo disclose the whole stated the distressed circumstances of Mr. of the case, he should not be prepared to Lorell. He had communicated to Mr. give his opinion upon it. He must protest Lovell the intentions of the Government. against the House being called upon for He had, however, tried all his friends, and an opinion, unless they were put in pos. could not get any two persons to step forsession of the whole of the case. He must ward in the security of 2501. each. There consider himself bound not to give his / were many gentlemen who would rather approbation on a mere partial statement. pay down the money, than give their
Lord Castlereagh applauded the reserve names as sureties under such circumstances. with which the right hon. gentleman ex. Mr. A. Brownc expressed himself satis, pressed himself on the present occasion ; fied with the conciliatory disposition of and he could have wished that the same his Majesty's Government, and hoped the reserve had been more extensively em. mercy of the Crown would be still further ployed upon former occasions.
extended to Mr. Lovell.
Mr. Bathurst thought that the public PETITION OF MR. LOVELL THE PRO- was entitled to some security, and that it PRIETOR OF “ The STATESMAN.”] Mr. was extraordinary that any man of suffiWhitbread presented a Petition from Mr. | cient character to conduct a newspaper Lovell, the proprietor of The Statesman,” should not be able to find two sureties in taking notice of his former Petition pre. the sum of 250l. each. sented to the House on the 23d of Novem. Mr. Whübread stated, that he had taken ber last; and setting forth :
occasion to visit Mr. Lovell in Newgate, “ That, since the same was presented, and that he should not have presented this the petitioner has been officially informed, petition, if he was not fully satisfied of the truth of the allegations it contained. / Sir J. Newport thought the continuance The right hon. gentleman who spoke last, of the petitioner in confinement furnished appeared not to have recollected the state. | demonstrative proof of his incapacity to ment of the worthy alderman who had procure bail, and he was therefore asbehaved so meritoriously in this transac- | tonished at the doubt expressed upon that tion, and according to whose observation, I point. many individuals would be ready to sub- Mr. J. P. Grant concurred in the opiscribe the sum required for Mr. Lovell's nion of the right hon.. baronet; for, four surety, who would yet be indisposed to months having elapsed since the fine im, put their names forward as bail for that posed upon the petitioner was remitted, gentleman. The motives of that indispo- and his security was mitigated, it was sition were indeed obvious. As to the obvious that he would not have so long right hon. gentleman's observation upon remained in prison, if he were not unable the petitioner's character, which, accord to procure bail. ing to that right hon. gentleman's opinion, 1 Mr. Whitbread repeated his hope that could not be respectable, because he found ministers would accede to the petitioner's himself unable to procure bail, it ought to prayer : it was evident, from the extreme have occurred to him that the petitioner length of the peritioner's imprisonment, was placed in very peculiar circumstances, that the ends of justice could in no degree in no degree affecting his general charac. suffer by the grant of mercy on this occater, although naturally creating an obstacle sion; for this was indeed an extreme case, to the attainment of bail,—that being in which could not be drawn into precedent, prison he was under the necessity of com. while the punishment suffered by the petimitting his publication to other hands, by tioner, was surely sufficient to make a due whom he had already been betrayed into impression upon his own mind and upon farther misfortune. The suffering of the the mind of others also. . . petitioner then was, in a great measure, The petition was ordered to lie on the attributable to the misconduct of others; table. but this very circumstance must operate to augment the difficulty of procuring
HOUSE OF LORDS. bail; for persons would naturally reflect, that they would have to become security,
Friday, March 17. not only for the petitioner bimself, but for LONDON PETITION AGAINST THE CORN those to whom he was liable to commit
Bill.] Lord Grenville said, that before the conduct of his paper. Hence the the order of the day was moved for the petitioner might feel a great difficulty in
committal of the Bill now depending in procuring bail, without any imputation | their lordships House for imposing a duty upon his general character. He was un. / on the importation of foreign corn, he was willing to make any statements whatever | anxious to call the particular attention of that could serve to inflame the mind of the House to the petition from the Corpoany one upon this subject; but in fact, the ration of London, which he bad presented most effectual way of inflaming the public the other day, praying to be heard by mind, as to the fate of the petitioner, counsel at their lordships bar; and he would be to reject the prayer of his peti. requested that the petition might be read. tion, and let him die in prison. This, bow. | (The petitiou being read, his lordship reever, he hoped and trusted would not be sumed.] Under all the circumstances of The conduct of ministers, but that feeling for the case, the motion which he was about the unfortunate situation of the petitioner, to submit to their lordships on the subject and seeing his inability to procure bail, of this petition, appeared to be one so they would allow him to be liberated upon little liable to objection, that he could his own recognizance.
| hardly conceive how any doubt could Mr. Bathurst disclaimed the intention exist as to whether or not it ought to be of saying any thing injurious to the private agreed to. He was totally at a loss to character of the petitioner, of which he understand what parliamentary regulations really knew nothing ; but added, that he or forms could stand in the way of the could not conceive bow any individual or petitioners, when they prayed that on this individuals could deem themselves liable question, where their interests were so to an imputation in paying the sum re. deeply concerned, they might be perquired for the petitioner's security, if such mitted to state their case by counsel at a disposition existed.
their lordships bar; but as, on a former day, some doubt had been suggested, whe- , time which had elapsed since he had prether the petitioners could be regularly sented this petition, he had endeavoured, heard, he should shortly lay before the as far as he could, to ascertain wbether House, the grounds on which it appeared there existed any parliamentary rules to to him that their lordships were bound to i stand in the way of their lordships come! comply with the prayer of the petitioners. pliance with this application. From all In doing this, it was by no means his in- the researches wbich he had been enabled tention to enter into a fresh statement of to make, and all the information wbich in those arguments respecting the general so short a space of time it had been in his principle on which he had on a former power to procure, his belief was, that occasion, perhaps at too great length, there was no order of their lordships dilated-arguments, however, which as he House, no general practice or rule that thought had met with no satisfactory answer could operate against complying with ihe at the time, and still remained unrefuted. prayer of this petition. There was cerBut the particular point here, related not tainly nothing against it in their orders; so much to the mischief, generally speak. he believed nothing against it in their pracing, which, in their opinion and in his, tice; and, indeed, it was not easy to conwould result from this mode of legislation, ceive how any general rule could be as to the mischievous effects which it must adopted, to settle precisely in what cases have on their particular interests. Their petitioners should be admitted to be heard lordships had already, by the second at their bar, and in what cases they should reading of the Bill, decided that the sub. not be heard. He need not, surely, ject ought to be entertained. They had remind their lordships, that they did not decided, generally, that it was fitting to confine this privilege of being heard, to legislate respecting the importation and individuals who prayed to be heard for price of corn; but surely on all parlia- their own private and particular interests. mentary grounds, the petitioners might On the contrary, counsel had been heard come to their lordships bar to show that at their bar on matters of the highest there was no necessity for legislating on public interest, as affecting large classes the subject at this particular rime. It of the community, but in which the innever, surely, could be presumed that the terests of one class were not more particorporate body of the city of London cularly involved than those of other could not enlighten their judgment and classes; and surely it could not now be inform their minds on points with which contended, if parties were to be heard for many of their lordships might be unac | their own peculiar interests, that because quainted, though upon these points even it so chanced that they had interests most the principle adopted by the supporters important to them, but which happened of this measure must in a great measure at the same time to be of importance to rest. If, then, most valuable information other classes of the community, they must on this important question could be ob. | therefore be excluded from all opportunity tained from the petitioners, was the oppor- of stating their objections. Was it the tunity of furnishing that information to rule of the House, that parties must not be denied them? In the rapid, not to call appear at their lordships bar for their it precipitate, mode in which this business interests because they had a double claim had been conducted, he had felt that to be there heard ? The petitioners in the personal inconvenience which resulted | present instance requested to state to their from the want of sufficient time adequately lordships for consideration, the manner in to discbarge his duty. It would ill become which ibis measure would affect their own any individual indeed to complain of local and peculiar interests. But at any, labour or personal inconvenience, when rate, the metropolis must feel whatever he could by that means materially pro- affected the general state of manufactures mote the interests of any number of his and trade all over the country; and even fellow-subjects, and particularly of large if they had not been directly or immeclasses of the community. But such was diately concerned, they ought still to be the effect of the precipitate manner, if he heard. If the measure now in progress in might so call it, in which they had pro- their lordships' House was calculated to ceeded with this measure, that he felt it produce great and extensive miscbief in impossible to devote the time and labour every quarter of the country, as the petito the subject which its vast importance tioners thought, and he thought it was, so peculiarly required. During the short how could the metropolis escape from its
full share of the evil? And if the city of the hopes of those future benefits which London must be affected with that which their lordships expected the country to pressed heavily on the great mass of the derive from it. It had not been said in community, why should not the corporate their lordships House, he trusted it would body of that city be permitted to lay their not be said there, that those who petis case before their lordships by counsel and tioned against the measure were incapable witnesses at their bar? It would be but of forming an accurate opinion upon the a waste of time, therefore, to argue, that question. It would be paying a false even if the city of London could be ex: compliment to Parliament to say, that empted from the direct and immediate con- | great additional light on the subject had sequences of the measure, they had clearly | not been gained from without. For his an interest to support it, on the ground | own part, he confessed that he had de. that whatever was deeply felt in other quarrived much information from the publi. ters of the kingdom, must be deeply felt cations which had appeared ; and he be. in London. The measure now in con- lieved that if Parliament bad been called templation, as the petitioners conceived, upon to legislate on the subject at the would be deeply felt all over the nation, time when the matter was first mentioned, and still more deeply felt in the metro- they would have done so with infinitely polis. As far as his researches had gone, less knowledge on both sides than they then, he repeated that he did not know of now had. The application now made to the existence of so perverse a rule as that their lordships was, that the petitioners petitioners should not be heard for their might be heard in this particular stage of interests merely because their interests the measure, when the information, which happened to be the same with those of they should be able to give their lordships the mass of the community. But if there would bear more immediately and dihad existed so strange a regulation as that rectly on the question. If any one imaa petitioner should not be heard, because gined that it was so peculiarly the proanother happened to have the same in- | vince of Parliament to consider what terest in the question, the petitioners' here were the general principles of commerce 'had a peculiar and local interest that no upon which they ought to legislate, that measure should pass without inquiry, the they would disdain to receive any inforimmediate effect of which would be tomation from without; yet, on certain parenbance the price of that which formed ticular points, the corporation of London the basis of the subsistence of the great might be able to furnish information, mass of the population. Suppose for a which it would be impossible for their moment, that there were some foundation | lordships to obtain in any other manner--for the theory, that the effect of this mea. | points of which the importance was ad. sure would ultimately be to reduce the mitted, and with respect lo which the price of corn ; yet it ought to be consi reports of their committees would supply dered, that this future good must be them very inadequately with the means brought about by the infliction of a pre- of knowledge. The first point was this: sent evil. Surely, then, these petitioners that perhaps the petitioners might be had a right to come before their lordships, enabled to furnish their lordships with and state the information which it might evidence both of fact and experience as be peculiarly in their power to give as to to those particulars on which the supthe extent of the evil, and the manner in porters of the measure rested their cause; which it would operate on the manufac- he said evidence of fact and experience ; turing and commercial industry of the he spoke not of opinion, though the recity of Loudon, and the rest of the com- port of their committee shewed in every munity. Supposing that the theory of page that the opinions of the wilnesses the supporters of the Bill were as sound had been asked, and properly asked. as he believed it to be fallacious, it was But supposing no opinions were to be surely of some consequence, even in that asked from these petitioners, their lordview of the subject, that their lordshlps ships might derive most important evi. should be apprised of the full extent of dence from facts and experience as to the evil or inconvenience which for a what had been the past operation of those time at least must be the result of the | laws which had been considered as si
proposed regulation; and it was impor- milar to that which it was now proposed ·lant, too, that they should be heard as to to enact. They might inform their lord
those facts which might justify or destroy ships whether it had been found that the