5 great surpluses, its mode of distribution, and the great waste there is. One learning experience has been substituted for another that they might have had had we fancy equipment in the school. I feel that there is some truth in this, but their experience would certainly be enriched still further if they did have those things they need in the school that they have not been able to raise in this way.) As much of an educational success as our school has been, I feel that we are still in existence today because of our good fortune in having a strong group of determined people involved in the school, the availability of a great many dedicated qualified teachers who are willing to work in alternative education projects for next to nothing (many of them want this because they are so alienated from public education) and our good fortune, just to mention one example, at finding someone to let us use a building for the school last spring when the one we were in burned down. Alternative schools like ours are one of the few places in the country today where real experimentation and innovation in education can take place. But how can schools be judged as successful experiments, if, because of financial problems, they never even have the chance to come close to practicing the ideals they espouse? I believe that these alternative schools are so essential to urban education today that some means must be found of public support for them that will not compromise their autonomy and allow them to continue to be places where real educational experiments can take place. Senator PELL. Our next speaker will be Mr. Allen Shine representing the Rhode Island Affiliate of the American Civil Liberties Union. Mr. STANZLER. Mr. Shine has asked me to take his place because he is engaged in court. I do appreciate the opportunity to appear before you, Senator. I am speaking on behalf of the Rhode Island affiliate of the American Civil Liberties Union Senator PELL. I see on the list Mrs. Mildred Stanzler, your wife. Would it be appropriate if you both came together to testify on the same thing? Mr. STANZLER. She is speaking in a different direction, I think. I think that the committee and the Senate knows the position of the American Civil Liberties Union but I would just speak briefly on our position. STATEMENT BY MILTON STANZLER REPRESENTING ALLEN SHINE OF THE RHODE ISLAND AFFILIATE OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION Mr. STANZLER. Since 1920, the American Civil Liberties Union has been dedicated to the preservation of those rights and liberties guaranteed by the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution. Since 1959, the Rhode Island Affiliate of the American Civil Liberties Union has been dedicated to "eternal vigilence" in the application of those guarantees to individuals, as well as to the public weal. In our efforts to preserve our constitutional system and the way of life guaranteed by the wisdom of our founders, in creating a viable democracy that will benefit all the people, many organizations, as well as many people have responded negatively to our actions, particularly when we have challenged their self-interests. However, we attempt to remain dedicated, not being in the business of seeking popularity nor participation in political contests. One area that has commanded a considerable amount of effort and time of our limited resources has been to insure that Congress and all other governmental bodies shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion. History records the whys and wherefors of the first clause of the first amendment. However, today, one need not even look at history to recognize the wisdom of this provision. One need only read daily newspapers, listen to radio and television and thus reassure themselves that in this country, because of this clause, we can be sure that religious fratricide will not occur. While we have long been aware of and sympathetic to the difficulties confronting the maintenance of private and parochial schools in their struggle to continue to exist and serve their particular needs, we cannot help but resist any in-roads that result in whittling away of fundamental constitutional guarantees. I am certain that the Senator and his committee are aware of the constitutional problems involved in attempting to devise legislation that will benefit these schools and at this juncture I include nonreligious private schools for any system of supporting these schools nationally may well run into a support of private schools created for the purpose of aiding those who seek to avoid constitutionally mandated integrated schools. Thus, the problems of the committee are myriad and offer no easy solution, if indeed, any solution. Two points should be further noted: in the decision written by Chief Justice Burger striking down Rhode Island and Pennsylvania systems of aid to religious schools last summer, he noted in effect that the question of aid to religious schools results in political questions that bring about a divisiveness amongst our peoples because of our religious differences. This factor alone would make any support unconstitutional and for very obvious reasons. Second, it should be noted and particularly by those who cherish private and parochial schools that once a governmental program is enacted and aid is given in whatever form and by whatever device there necessarily flows some form of governmental control or entanglement, which will affect the very reason for the schools existence, and more so in the case of religious schools for the guarantee of religious freedom set forth in the second clause of the first amendment will undoubtedly be affected thereby. I need to say that compromise must be made in order to achieve some of the public aid which often results in some of the lessening of the reasons for the existence of the parochial schools; that is, their opportunity to conduct their religious teachings. I personally over the years, Senator, now almost 20 years observed in this area and have participated in it and as I said I have spoken and I have been anxious to set forth a position with respect to the public school system. The public school system as you indicated in one of your questions before to Mr. Beiser, the fact that some people are leaving the public schools in attempting to run away from the implications and burdens of public schools. This is not an easy problem and it is something which I have observed and is indeed an unfortunate situation. I believe the fact that the public schools themselves don't have the sufficient means wherein to bring about the kind of educational system which will insure, prevent, and eliminate the reason for people running away from the public schools and I leave the best to Mrs. Stanzler. Thank you, Senator. Senator PELL. Thank you. You have long been in the forefront of many public projects to keep the Constitution pure and the civil rights of all of our citizens available to them. In this regard I am wondering what your own view is with regard to the cooperative educational programs between public and nonpublic schools, shared time and things of that sort, both with regard to the constitutionality and with regard to the matter of public policy? Mr. STANZLER. The shared time is constitutionally a serious question. Having observed and having worked rather with a case that went before the Supreme Court, of which I argued part, and having studied the decision very carefully, I would submit that there should be some device and some means whereby elimination of the very things unfortunately that parochial schools hold dear there can be a system effected which would enable the support of the various areas of the secular aspects of schools and it may be possible to do that, however, much as I see the validity in that sort of approach and the devices that can be established again, it is a sacrifice on the other hand from the as public point of view, the school point of view. I think that would tend to bring about another problem; that is, the private schools even if our voucher system or even if you have a device which I might have in mind after my study of these cases, to some form of shared-time procedure can be constitutionally valid. Now, whether you might then run into the problem dealing with those who are unable to attend the private schools on such a voucher system may not be sufficient for the education of that individual, the selection of schools through voucher system and there the urban schools would be weakened and they would become segregated schools. This may result in further litigation such as we see now coming from Richmond, whereby a Federal judge in Richmond has ordered the bringing together of the urban and suburban school districts so as to eliminate the segregation. The great difficulty is that as a result of all these things we can find that the public school system will be weakened to the extent that it will become segregated and everybody will be running to seek the private schools and may find because of that kind of education that they would like to have it because it is being paid for by the public. I can very well understand the problems that people face, but because of my long involvement in this situation I certainly don't have all the answers to it nor does anybody else. I fear the fact that what will be really sacrificed will be the public schools. Senator PELL. I am well aware of, and the subcommittee is well aware of the problem of the flight from certain schools as being one of the reasons why we have to take precautions here. We do not want to see the public assistance go to the freedom academys in the South set up to avoid integration. This is one of the problems that we face with rules and laws universally applicable and what is good for one part of the country can have a different effect in another part of the country. We will support a trust that is given in a State system here in Rhode Island whereas the same trust that was given in Alabama or Mississippi may be very harmful and may make a difference. What is your view with regard to the child, black or white, who is bused by one or two neighborhood schools that they would like to go to in order to achieve a judicial order for integration. Aren't the civil rights of that child being violated by not being brought to school en route? Mr. STANZLER. I don't think so. I am used to seeing the judge up in the courtroom, Senator, and I don't think that the right of the child is being affected by being bused by that school. I think that is attaining generally the mandates of the courts, the objective of achieving the integrated school and he will be participating in assuring greater civil liberties if he does participate. I don't at all agree with Mr. Beiser's views. I respect them considerably just as I didn't agree with those people who have long advocated that they have been denied their right to exercise their religious liberty freely because they cannot send their children to a parochial school, they have not been able to afford the tuition of parochial schools and that is a bit of the argument that Mr. Beiser made. This is the equivalent to the suggestion that the civil rights of an individual who was passed by in a particular school to go to another is denied and this is not so. This school system is something which is created and fostered by the public school authority and private school as they see fit and this is deemed to be the method which they can achieve their education and they are not in any way being denied any of their rights, I think, legally or constitutionally if they are not permitted to go to that particular school. Senator PELL. Thank you very much. Senator PELL. Our next witness is Mr. Bernardino Delgado, president of the Providence branch of NAACP. STATEMENT OF BERNARDINO DELGADO, PRESIDENT OF THE PROVIDENCE BRANCH OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF COLORED PEOPLE Mr. DELGADO. As to the aid directly to the schools or indirectly such as the voucher system I would like to speak to that on the following reasons. Such aid will, in effect, result in many instances in tax benefit to segregated schools. We realize there may be some serious promises to institute programs in some schools to insure integration, however, as we look through the Nation it is at least extremely difficult to establish and maintain and this seems to be the only tax supported one in which we understand that this hearing is supposed to deal with primarily. We believe with this program which is permanent in one State would at least be attempted in another State and possibly with various adverse effects on the public school size in that area. Further the existence of private schools are guaranteed in some form. Public assistance can be no barrier to the establishment of numerous new private schools all of which may result in extreme racial segregation. In the particular case of Providence where we feel the local public school officials have made progress, we would deem it highly advisable and in fact grossly unfair for the city of Providence to overtax supported alternatives to existing integrated public schools in the city of Providence. We believe that every child should have a right to equal education, and we believe the public aid to private schooling may result in serious infringement of that right. Thank you. Senator PELL. Thank you very much. I believe the degree of integration in some of the private schools in the State is greater than in some of the public schools. Mr. DELGADO. The statistics I wouldn't know but I know that the public schools are trying, you know, we are talking to these people and there are certain things they don't like in private schools and we believe this is discriminatory. Senator PELL. What is your view to what we should do with regard to the problem now where one-third or one-fourth of our students are going to be in private schools, nonpublic schools? Mr. DELGADO. A lot of them are running away and going to the suburbs and this is causing discrimination. Senator PELL. They're going to public schools in the suburbs. Senator PELL. The number of people in nonpublic schools is less now than it was and it is going down each year, but one-third of our children used to be in nonpublic schools and we now have a quarter of our children in nonpublic schools and maybe in 10 years one-fifth of our children in them. |