Q. What is that?—A. “ And we are thereby bound to give him our allegiance."

Q. Do you observe any other difference?-A. I think that instead of "to their just petition," he said "to the general cries or voice of his people."

LORD JUSTICE-CLERK.-Q." Just petition" are the words you see there?-A. Yes, my Lord.

Mr DRUMMOND.-Q. Any other difference?-A. The words "he has forfeited that allegiance," were never mentioned that I heard; and nothing that I remember but "to hell with allegiance."

Mr CLERK wished to know what the witness had said.

Mr DRUMMOND.-Q. The witness did not hear the words " he has forfeited that allegiance."-A. That is what I meant to say. "To hell with allegiance," is all that I heard at the meeting.

Q. Had you any charge as to printing that pamphlet ?-A. I was appointed to a charge about the printing, but I never acted to it.

Q. Who had the charge along with you?-A. Mr Baird.
Q. And who else?-A. Mr Walter Andrew.

Q. A writer?-A. Yes.

Q. You took no charge, though you was appointed to superintend the printing?-A. I was appointed, but never was at the meeting called for the purpose.

Q. How were you appointed to that charge?—A. By the committee.

Q. Was Baird a member of the committee?-A. He was. Q. Do you know who printed the statement of the proceedings?-A. It was given in to Mr Crawford, I understood. COURT.-That will not do.

Mr DRUMMOND.-Were you ever present at the printing?A. I was in Crawford's shop.

Q. Did you ever get any copies of the printed statement from Crawford-A. I did get from Crawford printed copies.

COURT.-Q. Did you buy them?-A. I was to pay for them. Lord HERMAND.-Q. Then you did buy them?-A. I did not buy them particularly.

Mr DRUMMOND.-Q. Do you know whether Baird sold any of them?-A. He did.

Q Did Baird ever tell you so?-A. He said he got quit of them ; but he did not say he sold them.

Q. Did he say he got quit of them all?-A. He said so.

Q. Did he ever get any from you?-A. About four dozen. Q. They were of those you got from Crawford ?-A. They were. Q. Did you give him all you had?-A. No. I had eleven or thereby left.

Q. Had you any conversation afterwards with Baird about those remaining?-A. I am not certain if I had. I do not recollect at present if I had.

Q. I think you said Baird mentioned he had got quit of all his. Did he make any remark on your not having got quit of yours?

A. I said I had still eleven or thereby; and he seemed surprised, as he had got quit of all his.

Lord HERMAND.-Q. What did you understand by getting quit of them?-A. The committee had liberty to get what they wanted; and copies were given to them when applied for.

COURT.-Q. The witness does not understand the question. Was any price taken for them?-A. I understood they were to be 4d. each; that this was fixed by the committee.

Q. Whether were they disposed of by sale or by gift?-A. I do not know whether Baird sold them or not. He was to pay for them.

LORD ADVOCATE.-Q. Did you ever go to Crawford's with Baird to inquire after the publication?-A. I did.

Q. What did you ask?A. We asked if any of the pamphlets were ready.

Q. Which of you asked?-A. I am not certain.

Q. You both went for that purpose ?-Yes.

Cross-examined by Mr JEFFREY for Thomas Baird.

Q. You have mentioned that you two were both members of the Committee for arranging about this meeting?-A. Yes.

Q. Were there many other members?-A. From 20 to 30, I think.

Q. These were constituted before the meeting was held?—A. Part. There were more added afterwards.

Q. Was any notice given to the Magistrates about the meeting? -A. Mr Baird and I were nominated to call upon the Magistrates, to inform them of the meeting.

Q. You went?-A. I did not.

Mr Baird said he went.

Q. Did he report that the Magistrates had no objections to the meeting?—A. He did.

Q. There was no interference of the Magistrates?-A. None. Q. Were you present at the meeting? A. Yes.

Q. Was Mr Baird there?-A. He was.

Q. Did he speak any?-A. No.

Q. Did you hear him make any remarks expressing satisfaction or dissatisfaction on what was said?-A. I heard him make a remark about the passage I was talking of in Alexander M'Laren's speech concerning allegiance.

Q. What did he say?-A. He said it was a pity it had been spoken.

Q. He disapproved of it?-A. Yes.

Q. You said you, Mr Andrew and Mr Baird were appointed to take charge of the printing of an account of the proceedings? -A. Yes.

Q. Was any motive alleged for the printing?-A. It was for defraying the expences attending the meeting.

Q. Was there any discussion at the meeting of the Commit about the propriety or impropriety of printing the whole had been so stated at the public meeting?-A. You Q. Did any body object to the printing

349

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ce

of what

there was.

all?-A. I think two

were not for printing at all; Mr Johnston, and Alexander Maclaren.

Q. Was M'Laren a member of the committee?-A. Yes.

Q. Did Mr Baird take any part in that discussion?-A. I do not remember that he did.

Q. Was there any discussion about the propriety of printing certain parts?-A. Yes.

Q. Did Mr Baird take any part in that discussion?--A. He did. Q. Was he for printing all the words?-A. No; he was not. Q. What words did he object to, or what passage?—A. I do not remember any other passage than that about allegiance in McLaren's speech.

Q. What did he say as to that passage?—A. That he would be inclined to keep it out altogether.

Q. Did he say any thing else about it?---A. I do not remember particularly any thing else he said.

Q. Was that proposition of his adopted by the committee or not? -A. No; it was not.

Q. Did it appear to you that Mr Baird approved or not of that passage ?---A. He disapproved of that passage, and wished it to be left out.

Q. Did you understand that all the members of the committee were to take copies of this statement, to forward the sale of it, and to account for the 4d. for each copy? A. Yes. The committee were at liberty to get what number they wanted, for the purpose of defraying the expences.

Q. Did they all get copies ?-A. I do not know who did and who did not.

Q. Mr Baird keeps a shop?--A. Yes.

Q. Did all the members of the committee keep shops?—A. No. Q. What kind of a shop is Mr Baird's? A. A grocer's shop. Q. Has there been any other general meeting since this in Dean ParkA. None that I know of.

Q. Certain resolutions were adopted which are to be found in the printed statement, and petitions to Parliament were, in conformity to them, prepared and forwarded?-A. Yes.

Q. Was there any disturbance or tumult at Kilmarnock since that date?-A. I do not recollect of any.

Q. Do you recollect any disturbance recently before that, a riot about meal?-A. Yes.

Q. Before the public meeting took place-about autumn ?— A. Yes; I do not know the exact time when it was.

LORD ADVOCATE.-Q. You said that Baird disapproved of printing the passage about allegiance :-do you remember whether McLaren said any thing, and what did he state about that passage? -A. I think he said, that if the committee thought there was any thing wrong, he would rather it were kept out altogether.

That was as to the passage in his own speech? A. Yes. Then Mr Baird objected to printing the passage, did he state Q. Wu he thought it an improper passage to be printed? his reasons why

-A. The reason was not stated there, that I remember; but when he and I were talking of it by ourselves.

Q. And what did he say?-A. He said to me it was a very indecent expression.

Q. He stated nothing to the committee of his reasons? --A. Not that I remember.

Cross-examined by Mr GRANT for Alexander M'Laren.

Q. I ask the witness to look at the printed speech, and find these words, "The fact is, we are ruled by men only solicitous for their own aggrandisement?"-A. I see them.

Q. Were these words spoken ?-A. I do not remember.

Q." And they care no farther for the great body of the people, than they are subservient to their accursed purposes.? Was that spoken?-A. I do not remember. I paid almost no attention to any part of the speech, except that about allegiance.

Q. How did it happen that you remember that passage so particularly, and none of the rest of the speech?--A. It struck me particularly.

Q. Then you do not mean to pronounce an opinion as to any thing that was uttered by M'Laren, except the passage about allegiance? A. No.

Q. Do you remember what passed about the opening of this meeting--who asked M'Laren to open it?-A. I do not remember who asked him.

Q. Did he volunteer, or was he requested to open the meeting? A. He was backward to open the meeting.

Q. And he was asked by the committee?-A. He was asked by the committee.

Q. When was he asked?-A. At a meeting of the committee. LORD ADVOCATE.-Q. How many days before the meeting ?A. I am not certain.

Q. It was some days? A. It was some days, I think.

Mr CLERK.-Q. Are you sure it was some days before the meeting? - A. I am certain; for immediately or the night before the meeting, he said he was in doubts whether he would do it or not.

Q. Did you use any particular means to keep the passage about allegiance in your recollection?-A. It struck me so forcibly at the time-the language was so strong, I kept it in my memory. Q. You mentioned other passages. What part of the passage you allude to just now? Did you consider the whole passage strong---A. The word hell struck me. That was the particular part I thought was wrong. I did not consider any thing wrong in the rest of it at the time.

do

Q. Did you write down the passage?---A. No.

66

Q. Are you quite confident of your recollection of the whole of the passage?---A. Lam quite confident it was very near to what I repeated. Whether the words, " cries," or voice," were used, as I said before, I am not sure of; but I am confident as to the rest of the passage.

LORD ADVOCATE.-Q. At the meeting, had M'Laren any paper with him?---A. I saw none.

Q. Did you ever see any paper with his speech on it ?—A. Never.

Q. Did you ever hear him speak of the terms of it after it was printed?-A. I recollect of him saying repeatedly, that the passage about allegiance was a quotation from Shakespeare which came into his mind.

Q. When did he first say that? Was it at the meeting of the committee?—A. I don't recollect of his ever saying that at the committee; but I have heard him repeatedly say so.

WILLIAM MERRIE sworn.-Examined by Mr Drummond.

Q. Are you a writer in Kilmarnock ?—A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember being at a public meeting held near Kilmarnock on the 7th December last?-A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember the speeches made at that meeting?-A: Part of them.

it.

$

Q. Who made the first speech?-A. Alexander M'Laren.

Q. Is that the man behind me?-A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember any part of his speech?-A. Very little of

Q. Do

A. Yes.

you remember words near the conclusion of it?

any

Q. Can you repeat them?-A. The hindmost part of it was, "hell with," or "for such allegiance."

Q. What allegiance was that he was speaking about?—A. If I remember right, he was wishing the people to address their August Sovereign; and he meant their allegiance to him.

Q. Did he give any reason why this allegiance was to go to hell?
Mr CLERK.He has not said that.

Q. Mr DRUMMOND.-Why did he apply the expression to such allegiance? What did he say?-A. If I remember right, it was, "if he turned a deaf ear to the voice of his people."

Q. Did he say any thing about petitioning? A. Yes, he wished the people to petition their August Sovereign.

Q. What more do you say of this speech ?-A. I do not remem

ber more.

Lord HERMAND.-He has explained enough I think.

Mr DRUMMOND.-Q. Do you remember any other part of his speech?-A. No.

Q. Did he use any words to shew what his meaning was when he spoke of the voice of the people?-A. Not that I remember of. LORD ADVOCATE.-Q. You said he wished the people to address their August Sovereign; and then you stated he said, "if he turned a deaf ear to the voice of his people." Did he add any thing? -A. I do not remember whether he added any thing or not.

Q. After he used the words, " if he turned a deaf ear to the