was a clear proof of the real power of the Pope, and of the real importance the ruler of France attached to his character, although his slave and prisoner; and the pains this eldest son of the Church and rightful successor of Charlemagne, had recently taken, with regard to the nomination of the bishops of France and Italy, afforded a lesson which ought not to be lost upon us.]

oath, proposed by the former, and insisted upon, as strictly conformable to the original declaration and protestation, which had been subscribed by a very great number both of the clergy and laity of that day, and by the said three vicars apostolic themselves; though they after wards renounced their signatures, and disclaimed and reprobated the instrument itself, as well as the very able and convincing arguments in support of it, adduced by the Catholic committee, by an Encyclical letter, by which they required absolute submission to their decrees er Cathedrâ, and to which, in spite of reason, justice, and sound doctrine, which were all on the side of the committee, it was ultimately obliged to submit.

I also refer to what passed in Ireland a few years ago on the subject of the Veto, or approbation of the crown, proposed to be exercised by it upon the nomination and selection of the Roman Catholic bishops of that part of the empire; on which occasion, after much disgraceful shifting and tergiversation, on the part of the Roman Catholic bishops, the laity, at last, implicitly submitted to the fiat of their clergy; when reason, justice, policy, and the constant undisputed practice, in all the other countries of Europe, Catholic or non-Catholic, were unequivocally on their side.

Mr. Yorke then proceeded :-I have ever thought that there was less danger to be apprehended, to this Protestant community, from this foreign ecclesiastical influence, while the Pope was resident at Rome, and possessed of an open, independent, temporal sovereignty there, than as now, when the Pope, powerless and degraded as he is described to be (but still evidently possessing a most important spiritual influence), is completely in the hands of Buonaparté. In the former case it was possible that something might be accomplished (through negociation), for settling this question, between our Protestant state and the Roman Catholics of the British empire; but in the latter, it is apparent that nothing satisfactory can be within our reach.

I must here again declare, Mr. Speaker, that it is to this foreign interference and jurisdiction, implicitly submitted to by the Popish clergy of these realms, that I prinHence it may fairly be concluded, that cipally object; I consider the other pethe tenets of the Romish church generally, culiar doctrines of the Romish faith, such the submission of its clergy to the papa! as transubstantiation, worship of saints, (i. e. a foreign) jurisdiction, and of its auricular confession, penance, &c. to be of laity to this so influenced clergy, remain comparatively trifling importance; an nearly as they were heretofore. It fol- importance, which attaches to their tenets, lows then that we ought to enquire in almost entirely in my opinion, on account what state this foreign supreme jurisdic- of the practicability of their becoming tion now is, with reference to the state of subservient to the views of a'foreign power, affairs in Europe at this most alarming acting, through the Pope, upon the minds crisis. [Mr. Yorke then referred to vari- and consciences of individuals of this perous transactions, which have lately passed suasion. But it is said that we have albetween Buonaparté and the Pope, parti- ready conceded so much, that little or nocularly in relation to the removal of the thing is left to give; and we are conlatter from Rome to Savona, and subse- demned for withholding that, which only quently to Fontainbleau; to Buonaparté's produces irritation. But is it true that the public and solemn declarations that the Roman Catholics deem that, which they French empire should submit to no spiri- now demand, as of little or no importance? tual nor ecclesiastical jurisdiction, but such Are seats in this and the other House of Paras should be resident within itself, &c. liament nothing? Is the command of fleets &c. as well as to the new Concordat, very and armies, and to partake in the supreme recently concluded upon between the administration of justice, of trifling consePope and Buonaparte at Paris; from quence? For my part, I am of a very difwhich it clearly appears that the former ferent way of thinking, and cannot conhas finally submitted to become the sub-template, without serious apprehensions, ject and vassal of the latter. Buona- the growth of a Roman Catholic party, inparte's great anxiety, on these subjects, troduced into parliament, and acting uni

from the bondage, forsooth, of the Bill of Rights, and Acts of Settlement, and paltering with their allegiance to the house of Brunswick, while they fall prostrate before the decrees of the councils of Lateran and Trent, and tremble at the bulls and rescripts of some miserable Italian or French Prelate, who is himself the chained and pensioned vassal of the most mortal and implacable foreign enemy their country ever had, of the most detestable and

formly together, with one object in view. We all know what even a small party is capable of effecting in this way. And is it quite improbable that such a party, acting in concert with Protestant Dissenters, and through the medium; for instance, of the abolition of tythes, may not be able, in process of time, to bring the church establishment into danger; and eventually shake the very foundations of the

Whom have they to blame for this state of degradation and inferiority, of which they so loudly and pertinaciously complain? Whom but themselves? Why do they not dare to raise their eyes above this night of spiritual darkness and ignorance, in which they voluntarily suffer themselves to be involved? Why do they not shake off this scandalous foreign yoke? Why, at least, do they not agree among themselves (I do not say to abjure the peculiar tenets and articles of their faith), but to abjure this foreign interference, in the appointment of their spiritual pastors, whom they might chuse and nominate among themselves, by capitular or provincial election, and who might be instituted and consecrated afterwards, by the hands of their metropolitans, or eldest bishops, in whom, they will not deny, that the apostolic succession continues to exist, For what, if it was not to aid them in shaking off the necessity of foreign interference in these respects, and to enable them to exercise the just and enlightened

state? On the other hand, what are the dan-execrable tyrant, whom the world ever saw, gers with which we are threatened, should we not think fit to concede that, which is now SO pertinaciously demanded?Phraseology and circumlocution apart, we are fairly told that we must expect insurrection and rebellion, on the part of the Irish Roman Catholics, and the eventual separation from British connexion, should we prove obdurate. I do not believe it. That there are agitators in Ireland, I do believe, who endeavour to make use of this Catholic question to cover their traitorous and malignant designs. But I do believe, that the main body of the Roman Catholics, both there and here, are loyal men; and I am persuaded, that they are much too wise and prudent, to be the instigators and the victims of rebellion and civil war; to sacrifice their share of the greatest temporal blessings, of such real comfort, opulence, peace, and security, as surely were never surpassed by any description of men, in any country whatever. And all for what? Not for any positive grievance or oppression, affecting their private rights, fortunes, liberty, or happi-discipline of a domestic church, was the ness; not for the want of liberal and effectual toleration of their religion, rightly understood; not for any denial of justice between man and man; not on account But it is said that citizens of the same of the absence of any real temporal bless-state ought to be entitled to equal priviing; but for a grievance, if not ideal in the abstract, yet amounting to little more in the concrete; for the attaining of certain contingent privileges which could, by possibility, attach only to the smallest assignable number, from among the many ten thousands of the Roman Catholic population of the empire.

national college of Maynooth established? Why is it now supported by a Protestant community at a great expence ?

leges. But in what sense can those be asserted to be citizens, who profess a divided allegiance? No man can serve two masters. The Roman Catholics of this day consent to pay only a half allegiance, and are to be considered only as half subjects of our lord the King. The Pope has the other moiety of their allegiance; and how can those, who will not agree to be citizens, on the footing of their fellow sub

I confess, Mr. Speaker, it requires no small share of patience to listen to those, who, while they complain of the oppres-jects, have a right to expect to enjoy the sive restraints, of the slavery of our British Protestant institutions, continue passively and slavishly to submit their necks to the yoke of a foreign spiritual tyranny, such as all history has proved it to be. To hear them crying out for emancipation,

complete and perfect privileges of citizens? I, for one, am decided, that, until I receive just and adequate satisfaction, on this essential point of foreign interference, np consideration shall induce me to agree to concede the Roman Catholic claims, to

that the evident impracticability of coming to any satisfactory conclusion at present, and the various new circumstances which have arisen, since the Resolution of last session was adopted, are conclusive reasons against going into this committee. No gentleman ought to be considered as pledged in any manner, as to the vote, which he is to give, on the present occasion. Since the dissolution of the last parliament, the situation of affairs has been materially changed, with regard to the condition of the Pope; with regard to the sentiments of the Roman Catholic body; and above all, with regard to the opinions both of the British and Irish Protestants. Under these circumstances, I cannot agree that it is possible to fulfil the words of the Resolution, to reconcile all parties, and to produce the general satisfaction and concord of all classes of his Majesty's subjects. On the contrary, it seems to me, that, by acceding to the motion, we shall do great mischief, as it will rather tend to keep alive, than to allay, religious disputes; I shall therefore give the proposition my decided negative.

the extent to which they appear now to be carried; for I am not speaking of minor and less important relaxations, which may be deemed expedient and proper, to get rid of existing anomalies. But I must also mention another point on which I am inclined to expect some satisfaction, with reference to the present situation of affairs; I mean some authentic declaration of opinion, on the part of the Catholic bishops and clergy of Great Britain and Ireland, as to what they will consider as the canonical election of the new Pope, the successor, that is to be, of Pius 7. I think we have a fair right to complain that, during the agitation of this important question, the Roman Catholic clergy have shewn themselves so little disposed to deal candidly and explicitly with us on this subject. Before I agree to go any further, I desire to be distinctly informed whether Buonaparte's nominee is intended to be acknowledged as the true canonical Pope? Whether he is to be entitled to their spiritual allegiance? Whether he is to become the keeper of British and Irish Roman Catholic consciences? In a recent publication, to which I have already adverted,* there is the following curious passage: "The archbishop's palace at Paris is repairing for the Pope; and it is even intended to pay him some external honours. But we must not be deceived; all this is only an infernal policy, and to throw dust in the eyes of Austria, Saxony, Ireland, Sicily, and all Catholic nations. The emperor seeing the Pope's health decay daily, would be glad for him to end his days in Paris, to the end that the Antipope, whom he certainly will endeavour to make, may appear with the better grace to succeed the immortal Pius 7. But it is very clear the Pope named by Buona-particularly entitled to this respect from parté will not be the real one, and those persons must be truly blind who allow themselves to be deceived." Very well; this is the opinion of the compilert of this book, who, no doubt, is a good Catholic. Why then do the Roman Catholics of Great Britain and Ireland hesitate about giving us some satisfaction beforehand, upon a point, which must be admitted to be of considerable importance, and upon which hitherto, as far as I know, they have been as silent and secret as the grave.

Upon the whole matter it appears to me

* Relation de ce qui se passa à Rome, &c. (Vide Appendix).

+ The Abbé de la Trappe. (VOL. XXIV.)

Mr. John Henry Smyth.-Mr. Speaker, having concurred in the Resolution, which the House came to in the last session, of the last parliament, for going into a committee to consider the state of the laws affecting Roman Catholics, with a view to a satisfactory and conciliating adjustment, I should think myself guilty of a great inconsistency if I did not vote for the present motion. The petitions on the table of the House, against the Roman Catholic claims, are entitled to be treated with respect, and the petition from the University, which I have the honour to represent, is

me, from the personal knowledge I have of the character of many of its supporters: but, viewing the question as one, not of a local nor partial nature, but as affecting the common interests of the empire, must exercise my independent judgment, whoever they may be from whom I differ. So far as the petition expressed an anxious desire for the security of our constitution in church and state, so far I cordially concur in it; but so far as it might be conceived to imply an opinion that the continuance of all the restrictions, at present in force against our Roman Catholic fellow subjects, is essential to that security, so far I must take the liberty to differ from it. It is clear, from a review of the his (3 H)

835] HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Mr. Grattan's Motion for a Committee

tory of the penal laws, that they were not so much aimed at the religion as at the politics of the Roman Catholics; they cannot be considered as essential parts of our constitution either in church or state; since the laws which first excluded, and now exclude, them from office and parliament, viz. the 25th and 30th Car. 2, were enacted nearly a century and a half after the Reformation, from which our ecclesiasticacl onstitution takes its date; and some years before the Revolution, when our civil constitution was perfected; and since the partial repeal of many of these laws, in the acts of 18th and 31st of the King, shews that the legislature has never seen any thing so sacred and fundamental in their character, as to prevent their removal, when the necessity, which originally directed their enactment, appeared no longer to require their continuance. As the res dura et regni novitas,' which was the justification of our ancestors, does not apply to the present times, so neither are the principles, on which these laws are now defended, the same as those on which they were grounded. ciple of toleration, much to the credit of The printhe present times, is now almost universally admitted, in its application to the Catholics; who were however excluded from its benefits by some of the wisest and most liberal of our ancestors in former times; in proof of which Mr. Locke's sentiments and those of bishop Burnet, where he assigns his reasons for voting for the 11th and 12th of Will. 3, are remarkable. The question which has arisen in the debate of this night, whether Roman Catholics could claim the removal of their political disabilities as a right, is a petitio principii on both sides, since it depends on the main question, whether the safety of the state requires their continuance. The admission of a small number of Roman Catholics into the Houses of Parliament, does not appear more likely to be prejudicial to our establishments, than the admission of a small number of Presbyterians at present. The doctrine, that a sovereign cannot be faithfully or effectually served, except by persons professing the same religion with himself, is contradicted by history, (in proof of which it might be sufficient to produce the example of Sully the Protestant minister of Henry 4, and of count Witgenstein, the triumphant Catholic general of an heretic master against his Catholic enemies ;) and has no foundation in our constitution; because the reasons, for

[836

which our constitution declares the crown to be essentially Protestant, do not apply to is the head of the established church, and the ministers of the crown; since the king ligion; or else this absurdity would follow, must therefore profess the established rethat the head might have one faith and the of expediency, there is no comparison bemembers another; and, because in point vide an easy remedy against the maltween the two cases, since the laws propractices of a responsible minister, but vereign. none against those of an irresponsible so

from the recognition of the Pope's spiThe apprehension of danger, ritual supremacy by Roman Catholics, does not seem to consist solely in their them with the Presbyterians, nor solely in denial of the King's, which is common to their acknowledgment of a foreign jurisdiction, which is the case also of the Moravians, but arises out of that sort of prejudice, which may be entertained by men of the most upright intentions and the greatest learning, who are more intimately conversant with the controversies and hisEurope at present, and the events of the tory of remote ages, than with the state of last century, during which there is perbaps no instance to be found of this authority of the Pope having seduced a single Catholic from his loyalty and allegiance sumption of inadmissible demands, to be to his temporal prince; the gratuitous asmade hereafter, by the Catholics, is no argument against granting them what is reasonable at present; that the present question does not affect the doctrine, discipline, nor government, the rights, privileges, and authority of the established church. It is a question solely on the expedience of relieving the Catholics from their political disabilities; and our constitution would be as much violated by admitting them to ecclesiastical privileges, as it now is by excluding them from civil ones. Finally, the weight of authority is already on this side of the question; I have great gratification in quoting the opithe union of the most eminent practical nions of the late archdeacon Paley; but statesmen is complete; and when I consider that Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox, who disagreed on almost every other subject, and carried the nation along with them in their disagreement, were united on the policy of Catholic concession, I cannot but think it strange, that those who implicitly adopted the opinions of either the one or the other, when they were at vari

[838 ance, should hesitate in their assent, when partiality of a native, but with the affecthe concurrence of the two increased the tion of a friend. I must say, Sir, that the probability that each was in the right. I subject appears to me not to be sufficientam sure none of the friends of Mr. Pitt will ly considered in a practical view. Those deny that it was his opinion that the civil who oppose the present motion, feel inabilities of the Catholics might be re- alarmed at some danger, which, they exmoved without prejudice to the church, pect, would follow upon the concession of and with material benefit to the state; any further privileges to our Roman Caalthough an obstacle too notorious to ren- tholic fellow-subjects; but no man has yet der it necessary to do more than allude to undertaken to point out or put before the it, which continued during the remainder House or the country, in any tangible of his life, but is now removed, prevented form, the nature of such dangers or the him from making the attempt to carry source from which they are to flow. Sir, that opinion into practical effect. I think I am aware that there is a pretty general, that, particularly considering the state of though indefinite idea, of the influence the public mind, and the apprehensions of maintained by the Catholic clergy over danger which exist in respectable quar- their flocks, and a notion that this inters, it would not be the part of wisdom influence may, and will, be employed, for the legislature to discard from their de- purposes dangerous to the Protestant_esliberation the question of securities; se- tablishment in church and state. But, curities, however, not amounting to a supposing this influence to exist to the verbal renunciation of their religion on utmost degree, to which the imagination the part of those of whom they are re- of any person can carry him, I never yet quired; but such securities as the Roman could learn, nor have I ever heard it stated Catholics may grant and the Protestants in argument, why the danger from it ought to be contented with. The Com- should increase, if some of the causes of mittee, should it be the pleasure of the complaint, some of the sources of irritation House to go into one, will be the proper which now exist among the great mass of place for this part of the discussion. I the Catholic population in Ireland, were thank the House for the indulgence with removed. With regard however, to the which they have heard me, and hope that degree of influence, which does in fact the resolution the House may come to will exist, although I will not deny that it is, be such as to conciliate the confidence and in some degree, to be found in Ireland, affection of our Roman Catholic fellow- yet I will venture to say that it has been subjects without endangering the Protes-and is upon the decline. I say this, withtant constitution in church or state.

Mr. William Courtenay addressed the House as follows:-Mr. Speaker, upon an occasion of such expectation as this is, I am induced to offer myself to the notice of the House by one consideration alone. The vote which I shall give, in favour of the right hon. gentleman's motion, would have sufficiently recorded my opinion upon the subject now under discussion, but it would not have recorded the grounds upon which that opinion is founded. The House has listened, with admiration and delight, to the sentiments delivered by distinguished natives of Ireland, who, from their talents, their experience, and their intimate acquaintance with that part of the united kingdom, are entitled to the highest consideration. I could not help wishing to add the opinion of an English member of parliament, founded upon, and confirmed by, connection and acquaintance with Ireland.

I speak of Ireland, Sir, not with the

out fear of being contradicted by those who are best acquainted with the internal state of that part of the united kingdom, and, if we consider the grounds, upon which the blind submission of the people, to the dictates of their priests, mainly rested, we shall see that many of the causes which produced this effect, have ceased to operate.

Observe what, a very few years ago, was the situation of the Irish peasant :born and brought up upon some mountainous or neglected tract, he was frequently uninstructed, even in the language of his Protestant fellow subjects. No oppor tunities were afforded to him of having those principles instilled into his mind, by which men are taught to become good citizens and loyal subjects of the state under the protection of which they live. He had no friend to whom he could apply for relief under his distresses, for advice as to his conduct, but the priest to whom he was attached by the connection of a common language and by the ties of