1. You are, I believe, Prime Minister of the Colony of Victoria?—Yes.

2. Who was the Governor when Sir Bryan O'Loghlen was appointed Attorney General?Sir George Bowen.

3. And this Paper, which I have received from the Colonial Office (handing a Paper to the Witness), is the appointment of Sir George Bowen ?-Yes, this is the draft of instructions on the appointment of Sir George Bowen.

4. I will read the 5th paragraph for the information of the Committee: "And we do further authorise and empower you to constitute and appoint in our name and on our behalf all such judges, commissioners, justices of the peace, and other necessary officers and ministers of our said Colony, as may be lawfully constituted or appointed by us." I also put into your hands a Paper which I have received from the Colonial Office, containing the terms of Sir Bryan O'Loghlen's appointment by the Governor (handing it to the Witness)?—I have no doubt that that is perfectly accurate.

5. "To the Honourable Sir Bryan O'Loghlen, Baronet, M.L.A. of the City of Melbourne, in the Colony of Victoria, by the power and authority vested in me in this behalf: I. Sir George Ferguson Bowen, the Governor of the said Colony, relying on your loyalty, integrity, learning, and ability, have constituted and appointed, and by these presents do constitute and appoint you, the said Sir Bryan O'Loghlen, Baronet, to be the Attorney General of the said Colony of Victoria, to have, hold, and enjoy the said office unto you the said Sir Bryan O'Loghlen, Baronet, during pleasure and your residence in the said Colony, and execution of the duties of the said office in person, unless in case of sickness or leave of absence being duly granted to you, together with

Chairman-continued.

all and singular the rights, powers, jurisdictions, and privileges to the said office appertaining, in the most full and ample manner. Given under my hand, and the Seal of the Colony, at Melbourne, in the said Colony, this 27th day of March, in the year of our Lord 1878, and in the 41st year of Her Majesty's reign. G. F. Bowen, Governor of Victoria, Melbourne. By His Excellency's command, Graham Berry"?—Yes.

6. On the appointment of the Attorney General under this Commission, had he to resign his seat in the Colonial Legislature?Yes.

7. And then he was re-elected ?—Yes.

8. Under what statute had he to resign his seat? The 23rd of Victoria, chapter 91 (a Colonial Act): "An Act to limit the number of persons holding offices under the Crown who may sit and vote in the Legislative Council and Assembly of Victoria."

9. Would you read the section applying to this point?—That is the 5th Section: "If any member of the said Council or Assembly of Victoria, either directly or indirectly, become concerned or interested in any bargain or contract entered into by or on behalf of Her Majesty, or shall participate or claim to be entitled to participate, either directly or indirectly, in the profit thereof, or in any benefit or emolument arising from the same, or shall become bankrupt, or apply to take the benefit of any Act now or hereafter to be in force for the relief of insolvent debtors, or shall compound with his creditors, or accept any office or place of profit under the Crown, or shall in any character or capacity, for or in expectation of any fee, gain, or reward, perform any duty or transact any business whatsoever for or on behalf of the Crown, his seat shall thereupon become vacant."

Mr. Attorney General for Ireland. 10. Would you read the 3rd Section also, which specifies the Attorney General as one of the officers liable to retire from office on political grounds?" Until such appointments as aforesaid shall have been made by the Governor, the persons for the time being holding the offices of Chief Secretary, Attorney General, Treasurer, President of the Board of Land and Works, or Commissioner of Crown Lands and Survey, Vice President of the Board of Land and Works, or Commissioner of Public Works, Commissioner of Trade and Customs, Solicitor General and Postmaster General, shall be capable of sitting and voting in the Legislative Council or Legislative Assembly of Victoria, provided that of the said persons four at least shall be members of the said Council or Assembly." Chairman.

11. Could you tell the Committee how the Attorney General is paid?-There is a special appropriation which forms part of Schedule D. of the Constitution Act, by which 14,000 l. a year is set apart for the payment of the responsible Ministers of the Crown. That is varied. in its distribution from time to time by the Government of the day sitting in Cabinet, and then it is made an Order of Council, and becomes binding until it is revoked and altered by any subsequent arrangement.

12. And how much of that is paid to the Attorney General?-Speaking from memory, I think 2,000 7. a year.

13. And has be any fees besides that, or is that the whole of his emolument ?-He has certain fees connected with the Patent Office; those are all, I think.

14. And is that sum voted by the Colonial Legislature?-No; it is a special appropriation reserved in the Constitution Act.

15. The sum is reserved specially to Her Majesty Yes, a special appropriation in what is generally spoken of as Schedule D., which also

Chairman-continued.

reserved other sums for other purposes to Her Majesty.

16. Is this in the 18th & 19th Victoria, chapter 55, of the Imperial Statutes ?-Yes, it forms a Schedule to that Act.

Mr. Forster.

17. I understand you to say that it is upon that part of Section 5 which says, that if any member of the Council or Assembly of Victoria shall accept any office or place of profit under the Crown, thereupon his seat shall become vacant, that you consider that Sir Bryan O'Loghlen vacated his seat in the Assembly?—Yes, certainly.

Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.

18. Is the Attorney General for Victoria appointed without the slightest reference whatever to the Home Government?-Yes.

19. And could he be dismissed by the mere prerogative of the Governor there?—Yes, certainly.

20. And supposing that the Attorney General left the Colony to take his seat in this Parliament, he would ipso facto vacate his office, because he would cease to reside in the Colony ?- Certainly.

21. The terms of his appointment are "during residence in the Colony"? Yes.

22. So that if Sir Bryan O'Loghlen appeared in this Parliament to take his seat, the mere fact of his appearance would be evidence that he had ceased to hold the office of Attorney General for Victoria?-Yes.

Mr. Lowther.

23. When you speak of residence, how would you define "residence"; we have, for instance, the pleasure of seeing you here to-day, but I presume you have not forfeited your position ?-But I have special leave of absence.

24. That brings me to my point; that it is absence without leave which would vacate the seat?—Yes, that would be it.

26. What particular office in the Colonial Office do you hold ?—I am the principal in charge of the Australian Department.

27. Do you produce to the Committee a copy of the telegraphic correspondence as to the appointment of Sir Bryan O'Loghlen?-Yes; I was told to do more, and bring the correspondence with the Governor. I have brought the Papers in original which have been recently transmitted to the Committee, with the exception of the acknowledgment by Sir Bryan O'Loghlen of the Address of the House of Commons and the Resolution of the Committee of August last; I find that that document was sent to the Speaker of the House of Commons in original on the 2nd of December last.

28. Have you got it there?-I have not got that particular document; I have a copy of it. A copy has been already sent to the Committee. 29. Will you put those Papers in ?—Yes (handing in the same).

Chairman-continued.

30. Do you also put in the last telegrams?--Yes (hunding in the same).

31. Have you also got a copy of the appointment of Sir George Bowen, the letters patent?No, I have not brought that; but I believe Mr. Bramston has a copy of it.

No.

32. Have you anything more to produce?

Mr. Spencer Walpole.

33. There was a telegram sent through the Colonial Office to Sir Bryan O'Loghlen, was there not?-No, not direct; it was sent to the Governor instructing him to send home the full text of Sir Bryan O'Loghlen's Commission.

34. Was there no telegram to the Governor or to Sir Bryan O'Loghlen himself informing him of the notice given to him that this Committee was sitting upon the question?-There was a Despatch to the Governor dated the 13th of August.

35. Did Sir Bryan O'Loghlen make any answer to that?—Yes.

-36. And

Mr. Spencer Walpole-continued.

36. And in making that answer did he say that he would attend or not attend the Committee?—He did nothing beyond acknowledging the receipt of the Address and of the Report.

Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.

37. There is one question which I should like to ask you on the 46th section of the 18 & 19 Vict. c. 55: I find of Section 46 the marginal. note is "Civil List," and the section is, "There shall be payable in every year to Her Majesty, her heirs and successors, out of the consolidated revenue of Victoria, the several sums not exceeding in the whole One hundred and twelve thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds for defraying the expense of the several services and purposes named in the First, Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth parts of the Schedule to this Act annexed, marked D., and the said sums shall be issued by the Treasury of Victoria in discharge of such warrants as shall be from time to time directed to him under the

hand of the Governor, and the said Treasurer shall account to Her Majesty for the same through the Lord Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury, in such manner and form as Her Majesty shall be graciously pleased to direct"; now Schedule D. mentions this Attorney Generalship of Victoria ?--Yes.

38. And it is put under the salary of 2,000l. a year? Yes, under Schedule D. of the Constitution Act.

39. Have these accounts been sent over from time to time?—No, I should say not with reference to that section.

40. Would they come to your department? Yes, if they come at all. A year or two afterwards you might see them in the Estimates, and Appropriations.

41. But supposing this section was carried out, would the accounts be transmitted to the Treasury through you, the Colonial Office?-Yes; but I apprehend that it is not carried out.

42. The meaning of this is that this sum should be accounted for in some way to the Treasury over here? If so required. But I do not think it has been. I should say that the Legislature of Victoria have power to alter that Act to a certain extent, and very likely they have done so.

43. I find that in a later section, Section 48, "It shall be lawful for the Governor to abolish

Mr. Attorney General for Ireland-continued. Mr. Dealtry.

any of the offices named in the third and fourth parts of the said Schedule, or to apply the sums thereby appropriated to such other purposes connected with the administration of the Government of Victoria as to Her Majesty, Her heirs and successors, shall seem fit;" is that the power of alteration that you refer to?-I think they have a power of alteration. It is 25 years since that enactment was made, and they have done a great deal since then. We occasionally send accounts to the Treasury when we get them from Victoria, but it is not considered necessary to do so; we in no way audit them or interfere with them.

Chairman.

44. You will be able to produce more evidence on that point to-morrow, perhaps? Yes. The pay of the Attorney General differs in different years. Last year it was 1,701 7. 8 s. 1 d., and the year before it was 1,630 7. 6 s. 1 d.

45. Where do you get those figures from?-I got the first figures from the Agent General for the Colony, and the second I got out of some special votes sent over.

46. Is that besides the 2,000 l. a year?-No, I do not understand it so.

47. Will you inquire into that before tomorrow?-I will.

Mr. Lowther.

48. You mentioned that these financial statements, as you call them, are sent periodically from the Colony to the Colonial Office ?Yes.

49. As a matter of fact, is that done?-Yes. They come after the close of the year, very likely, but they do not come in a covering despatch, and we do not consider that they call for any special attention or action. We could not interfere in any way with the finances of the Colony.

50. You say that as a matter of fact they do come, but they come irregularly, and sometimes at long intervals ?--Yes, I should say so.

51. When you get them, sooner or later, what is done with them?-If we consider them very important we send them to the Treasury.

52. And otherwise put them into the waste paper basket?-I would not go so far as to say that, but they are put aside.

Chairman.

53. You are Assistant Under Secretary of State at the Colonial Office ?—I am. 54. Do you produce a copy of the Commission of Sir George Ferguson Bowen?—I do (producing it).

Mr. O'Shaughnessy.

55. Do the Colonial authorities of this Colony notify to you such appointments as this of the Attorney Generalship? - Undoubtedly, the Governor would always report the formation of a new Ministry.

Chairman.

56. Have you anything more to say about this matter yourself?—I may say that the prepara

Chairman-continued.

tion of Commisions passes through my hands when they are made, and I am the Under Secretary in charge of the Australian Department.

57. You cannot give us any further information about the salary of the Attorney General?— No.

Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.

58. In "Chambers on Elections," under the heading of "Offices held to vacate seats," there is a long list of offices given, whose names would go to show that they were connected with the colonies, namely, Barbadoes, Virginia, Dominica, Gibraltar, Tobago, Jamaica, Leeward Islands, &c. Nothing whatever is stated there as to the nature, tenure, or mode of appointment to those

24 March 1879.

Mr. Bramston.

Mr.

Mr. Attorney General for Ireland-continued. Bramston. offices; would there be anything at all in the records of the Colonial Office that you know of, 24 March 1879. that would tell the Committee how these offices were created, whether they were appointed by the Governors of the day of those Colonies, or whether they were appointed by the Home Government. These are old appointments made, some of them at the end of the last century, and some of them at the beginning of this?-I have no doubt we could find the history of any one appointment as far back as that.

Chairman.

59. Would you be good enough before tomorrow, if you can, just to look at this paragraph in the memorandum drawn up by the Attorney General for Ireland in "Chambers on Elections" (page 421), under the heading of " Offices held to vacate seats." There is a long list comprising offices purporting to be of Barbadoes, Virginia, Dominica, Gibraltar, Tobago, Jamaica, Leeward Islands, &c., but nothing is stated as to their nature, tenure, or mode of appointment. Can you find anything ou that point for us?—I could tell you now how the men are appointed in all those Colonies at the present day.

Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.

60. The present day would hardly do, because those that are in Crown Colonies are appointed over here by the Secretary of State ?-They are nominated over here by the Secretary of State. The selection of all the principal offices is made here by the Secretary of State, but the actual appointment is done on the spot by the Governor. For instance, supposing a gentleman is sent out as Attorney General to a Colony, his name is selected by the Secretary of State here; the name is then submitted to the Queen, and a warrant is signed by Her Majesty authorising the governor to admit that particular man to the office. On the arrival of that warrant the Governor issues a Commission under his hand and the seal of the Colony.

Mr. Lowther.

61. Is that in the case of a Crown Colony ?-Yes.

Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.

62. What the Committee would like to know, in regard to the various cases referred to in that memorandum, is whether in those very cases where it is said that the acceptance of such appointments vacates the seats, they were made in the way you have now described on nomination from home, and on a warrant from the Secretary of State to the Governor, and then completed by the Governor, or whether they were made altogether in this country?—That would depend very much on the nature of the office.

68. I think with regard to that list which the Attorney General for Ireland drew attention to, the Colony of Jamaica, at that time was a selfgoverning Colony, and had a Legislature, but has since become a Crown Colony?—Yes.

69. Had the others, not counting Jamaica, Legislatures ?-I cannot say whether all had, but most of them would have.

70. In other words, they are substantially on all fours with Victoria in a constitutional point of view?-Yes, except that I do not know where to look for the constitution of Virginia.

Mr. Attorney General.

71. Supposing Her Majesty thought proper to dismiss the Attorney General for Victoria, is there anything to prevent her doing so; he holds that office during pleasure"; during whose pleasure ?—I take it, that if it were thought necessary to take such a step, the Queen, through the Secretary of State, would instruct the Governor to revoke the appointment.

Mr. O'Shaughnessy.

72. Do not I rightly understand, that the power of the Governor and of his Council in Victoria to appoint, to suspend, or to remove, is entirely derived from this Commission from the Queen ?—No, I think not.

Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.

73. Section 37 of the Victoria Constitution Act states, "The appointment to public offices under the Government of Victoria, hereafter to become vacant or to be created, whether such offices be salaried or not, shall be vested in the Governor, with the advice of the Executive Council, with the exception of the appointments of the officers liable to retire from office on political grounds, which appointments shall be vested in the Governor alone"?—Yes.

Mr. Forster.

74. With regard to the list that was read by the Attorney General for Ireland, from "Chambers on Elections," stating that the offices held to vacate seats comprised offices "purporting to be of Barbadoes, Virginia, Dominica, Gibraltar, &c."; as regards those Colonies, at the time this statement was held to apply, Jamaica was a Legislative Colony?-Yes, speaking from memory, it was.

75. And Barbadoes was a Legislative Colony? 76. And

-Yes.

81. You are, as we all know, Clerk of the House of Commons?-I am.

82. Do you produce the certificate of the return of Sir Bryan O'Loghlen as Member for Clare County ?-Yes (producing the same). I have the certificate here which, perhaps, I had better read, "These are to certify that Sir Bryan O'Loghlen, Baronet, is returned a Member to serve in this present Parliament for the County of Clare, as by a certificate delivered into my office this day, and there now remaining of Record, appears. Given under my hand, at the said office, this Seventeenth day of August 1877." (signed) "C. Romilly, Clerk of the Crown in Chancery."

83. That is before the date of the appointment of Sir Bryan O'Loghlen as Attorney General for Victoria?-Yes; Sir Bryan O'Loghlen was appointed Attorney General for Victoria on the 27th of March 1878, as appears from a document before the Committee.

84. You have heard the papers read which have been put in; do you wish to say anything with regard to the authority under which his appointment as Attorney General of Victoria was made?-Yes; I am not sure that it appeared quite distinctly, or at all events it may perhaps be repeated, that being one of the responsible Ministers in Victoria, he is appointed by the Governor alone, and not by the Governor with the advice of the Executive Council, as other officers are appointed. I may add, perhaps, that there are only nine officers in Victoria who are allowed to sit in Parliament; those nine being the responsible Ministers of the Governor, for the time being.

85. Are they all appointed by the Governor and Council?-By the Governor alone, according to the terms of the Constitution Act of Victoria of 1854.

66

86. Have you anything to say as to the form of the appointment itself? That has been lately read to the Committee; it is in accordance with the terms of the Constitution Act, inasmuch as it says, By the power and authority vested in me in this behalf, I hereby appoint"; that is, I presume, under the authority derived from his Commission from the Crown, and also under the Constitution Act of Victoria.

87. Under the Commission which we have heard read? Yes, both under the commission, and under the Constitution Act of Victoria.

88. Do you wish to say anything further than that with regard to the position of the Attorney General as a responsible Minister?-Pursuant to another Act of the Colony of Victoria, the 23rd Victoria, No. 91, he vacated his seat on accepting his appointment as Attorney General of the Colony, and was re-elected, as appears from the papers laid before the Committee last Session.

Chairman- continued.

89. Do you wish to say anything as to the distinction between offices from the Crown, and offices under the Crown?-The statutes relating to such offices have been so fully explained in the memorandum laid before the Committee by Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, that I will not refer specifically to the statutes; but I think it is as well that the Committee should have distinctly before them the difference between offices from the Crown, and offices under the Crown, under those statutes. Now with regard to offices from the Crown, I think their nature has been distinctly defined by 41 Geo. 3, c. 52, as offices accepted "immediately and directly from the Crown." Such appointments are granted either by letters patent, by warrant, by commission, or by kissing of hands, or otherwise directly from the Crown.

90. Of course you are aware of the distinction between the old offices and the new offices?Yes.

91. Have you anything to say on that point? -There is this peculiarity with regard to old offices under the Crown and not from the Crown, that the holders of them do not vacate their seats

at all, as is well known, not only according to law, but also according to practice. For example

the Under Secretaries of State, the Secretary to the Treasury, and the Secretary to the Admiralty, and other similar appointments, being old offices, do not come under the clauses of the Acts, and the seats of the holders of those offices are not vacated at all; while new offices of a similar tenure wholly disqualify.

92. Have you made any search as to precedents relating to offices in the Colonies?-Yes, I directed a search to be made in the Journals, and I have before me the result of that search (producing some Papers); but I apprehend they will generally be inapplicable to the present case. By far the greater number of them were obviously old offices, and were granted directly from the Crown, inasmuch as the Members who accepted the offices vacated their seats, and were returned again for the same places, and continued to sit in Parliament. Hence it is obvious, in the first place, that they were old offices, and granted directly from the Crown; and secondly, that the duties of those offices, if any, were performed in this country, as the holders of them continued to sit in Parliament. Such precedents appear to be scarcely in point, but I can hand them in to the Committee. (The same were handed in.)

Mr. Walpole.

93. Those are entirely cases of old offices, in fact, from the Crown?-Nearly all.