Indirect Taxes. [FEBRUARY, 1797. FRIDAY, February 17 Increase of Duties. SALT. H. OF R.] both go together. Mr. S. said, he had another article of sweetening, which he wished also to add to the resolution: great quantities of sugar-candy were manufactured in Holland and sent all over Germany; it was used with tea Mr. HARPER then proposed that an additional and coffee, in the place of sugar. This arti- duty of five cents per bushel should be laid upon cle, he said, was finding its way among the Ger- all salt imported in the United States. [Mr. H. mans in this country. At present it only paid read the letter of the Secretary, wherein he a duty of 10 per cent. ad valorem, which was a mentions salt as being at a much lower rate of very inadequate duty, when compared with that duty than in other countries, and that no tax paid on sugar. Mr. S. said, he was against go- laid upon it could be evaded, from its necessity ing into the subject of indirect taxes, but he and bulk.] Mr. H. added, as, in his opinion, thought with the gentleman from Pennsylvania satisfactory answers had been given to the ob(Mr. GALLATIN) that it was his duty to make jections which had been urged against this tax, the resolution as good as he could. Nothing it was not necessary to say more on the subject. had been said to prove that we had not revenue enough for the present; but he would, how-retary of the Treasury were excellent fiscal ever, move to add nine cents a pound upon Eugar-candy imported. Mr. GALLATIN said the arguments of the Sec arguments, and went to say, "provided we can get money, no matter how." He says salt canMr. S. said, he agreed with the Secretary of not be smuggled; that we know: whether the the Treasury, that sugar was amongst the most duty was increased, or remain as it was, the proper articles upon which to lay an additional people must consume the same. This was true, impost; but he wished for some permanent and the same arguments might be used for taxsource of revenue, and not adopt the triflinging the light or the water. Of all the necesmodes proposed. Gentlemen talked of deceiv-saries of life, a duty was most easily collected ing the people; he said they could not be deceived; they would know there were two parties in that House, the one for direct, the other for indirect taxes. Those gentlemen who were opposed to direct taxes brought forward these articles in place of it. The people need not be told this; they saw it evidently enough. Mr. HOLLAND said, though he was opposed to direct taxes, he was also on sugar and molasses; he saw all the disadvantages of some other gentlemen on taxing West India produce at this critical juncture; but if it must pass, he should think it his duty to endeavor to make it pass as unexceptionably as possible; however, he should oppose both, and though it affected his constituents differently from those of Vermont, yet he should not include them as necessarily connected. Mr. H. thought if these were opposed, there might be many articles more proper to lay a tax on; but he thought there was no necessity for any this session. The question for adding one cent per gallon on molasses was then put and carried. Mr. S. SMITH then moved that nine cents per pound be laid on sugar-candy imported, observing that it was much used by the Dutch, and there being much sweetening in it, it should bear a proportionate duty. Mr. W. SMITH wished the gentleman to be candid on the motive of his proposition. upon salt; and this was the reason which had induced other countries to tax it so heavily; and yet this was used as an argument for increasing the duty here; but he was not one of those who felt any consolation, upon such an increase of duty, that there were other countries where the duty was yet higher. Mr. G. said, as to any satisfactory answers which had been given to the objections to this tax, he had not heard them; he believed they had not been answered at all; except, indeed, sullen silence might be deemed satisfactory answers; if it were, they had indeed been answered satisfactorily. Mr. G. here repeated the objections to the tax which he had made on a former occasion, viz: that it would operate as a poll-tax; that it would fall partially on some districts of country, and upon some classes of citizens more than others. He said salt in that part of the country from which he came was already upwards of four dollars a bushel, and that it would be there fore oppressive to increase the evil, by adding fresh duties upon it. Mr. NICHOLAS said a tax on salt was equally objectionable, whether it was considered as a poll-tax, or as a tax upon agriculture. As a poll-tax, every one would see the injustice of charging all men alike with a tax, without respect to their ability to pay it; as a tax upon agriculture, he was able to say something from experience. He was willing to give all the authority to the opinion of the Secretary of the Treasury which he could wish, but he could not pro-yield his opinion to him. He knew that agriculture was at present very much depressed by the high price of salt; he had himself refrained from the use of it, by its dearness, though he believed his cattle had been the worse for it. The poorer class of citizens in the part of the country from which he came were generally Mr. S. SMITH answered, that his conduct with respect to the subject had always been fair and unequivocal; he wished the whole proposition to be defeated, which he had before declared, but, to make it equal and consistent, he posed the addition. It was then put and carried. The question was put on the whole resolution, as amended, and carried-yeas 52. owners of cattle, and employed themselves in taking care of them. These men found it at present as much as they could do to make a comfortable living, and any additional tax on salt would be very ill received by them. He was satisfied that it was a tax which would operate with great inequality; it was a tax upon one kind of employment-upon an employment which was generally pursued by the poorer classes, and consequently least able to pay it. It might be said, five cents a bushel was a trifle; but he said he objected to it from the principle of taking money where it could be got, as, if five cents were now to be added, the same argument would hold for adding another and another five on a future day. Mr. HOLLAND was opposed to the amendment; he said no article which could be mentioned would bear a greater augmentation than salt; indeed the whole revenue of the United States might be raised from it, because it must be used by every person; but that was no reason why the whole burden should be laid on it. In North Carolina, Mr. H. said, it was four dollars per bushel, which was sufficiently high without adding to the price, and was always a cash article, and difficult to be had for that. It being an article of absolute necessity, the rich would not pay more, if so much, as the poor. Mr. RUTHERFORD said, he was against this tax for two reasons; the first was on account of its inequality, and the next on account of its odiousness. A tax on salt, he said, was almost like taxing the common air. Farmers were obliged to use large quantities of it for their stock; it rendered them docile and easy to be managed. Indeed it could not be done without; a person was nothing without salt. The price at present was enormous on the frontier, and this duty would add prodigiously to it; for this reason he should give it his flat opposition. Mr. FINDLAY said, because salt was necessary, and because it could not be smuggled, would not surely be sufficient arguments for increasing the duty upon it. The law of reason, he said, was the law of justice. Mr. F. gave an account of the progress of this tax. His colleague (Mr. GALLATIN) must have been mistaken as to the price which this article bore in the Western country. He had himself lately paid six guineas for six bushels of salt. Indeed this was considered as the greatest inconvenience in that part of the country, and they could not at present be relieved from it. Providence, who generally bestowed the necessaries of life in a very general manner, had not provided them with salt. And shall we, for this reason, monopolize a revenue upon it? For the same reason would hold good for paying the whole upon it as a part. He trusted they would not be so unjust to the people of that country. Mr. HARPER said, after all the time which had been taken up in discussing this subject, he would not occupy the attention of the committee longer than while he made one or two remarks. The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GAL- | | [H. OF R. LATIN) had said that no answer had been given to his objections against an additional tax on salt. He should not enter into a dispute with that gentleman upon what might be deemed an answer; but he believed many members of that House would remember that an answer was given, and probably they might also think it a satisfactory one; at least it was so to one person. The objections brought against this tax would be well-founded, if the whole revenue was proposed to be raised from it; or if it were intended as a substitute for a land tax, or any other great object; if two or three millions were wanted from it, then it might be objected to upon good ground; but when one hundred thousand dollars only were proposed to be drawn from this source, he did not think the objections would hold. Admitting, said Mr. H., that there was some inequality in the operation of this tax, those persons upon whom it fell heaviest were exonerated from many other taxes which other parts of the country had to pay. They had, for instance, just agreed to increase the duty upon a certain species of cotton goods, of which they would not purchase a single yard. The present revenue was six millions four hundred thousand dollars, of which salt pays near three hundred thousand dollars. The people on the frontier, who pay for salt, are in a great measure exempt from other articles taxed; they purchased neither foreign wines nor spirits, high priced dresses nor furniture; all they wanted was corduroys, &c., which was very unfrequent. If five cents per bushel was laid on salt, those persons would have about a dollar a year more to pay, and nine-tenths not half a dollar. What could be more easy? Indeed, except the people were told of the duty they would not know it, as its effects would be so trifling. With respect to the price of salt at Fort Pitt, as a gentleman had observed, it might be high, but was this occasioned by a duty? No, but by the situation of the country. Ought they not, then, he asked, to devise some species of tax by which to draw some part of the revenue from the inhabitants of the back country? He thought so far from this being wrong, that justice required it. This subject did not address the understanding, but the sensibility of the House, or perhaps the sensibility of those out of the House. The objections against the tax which had been urged, he thought, ought not to have any weight, since it would operate with the greatest equality upon the whole, and there would be safety, propriety, and justice, in making the augmentation in question. Suppose two cents were put, instead of five; this would raise a good sum, and be very easy. Mr. S. SMITH moved that the committee rise; which was negatived-there being only twentyfive in favor of it. Mr. W. SMITH said the question had best be taken on blank cents, then five, four, or any number of cents could afterwards be added. 1 The question was then put, and lost-yeas 41, nays 48. SATURDAY, February 18. Naval Appropriation. The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill granting an appropriation for finishing the three frigates, and also upon the bill repealing that part of the act which provided for the officering and manning the frigates, both having been committed to the same Committee of the Whole. That for repealing a part of the former law came first under consideration. [FEBRUARY, 1797 with three frigates? He would answer, that so far as they went, they gave stability and protection to our commerce. True, they were not thirty frigates, but he believed, few as they were, they would save more than five times what they cost in only one year. The richest ships we have are now taken and robbed by every picaroon and pirate infesting the seas, because we have no security; and he was surprised it was not worse. He had no doubt but it would be an emolument; it would be a protection to the great revenue we enjoy. That very trade, he said, which was subject to spoli ation from such petty robbers, paid into the revenue five or six millions of duty annually. If Mr. W. SMITH said he could not abandon the this was still permitted to be encroached on, it idea of our some time becoming a naval power; was an error, and it would soon be seen; and he very much disliked the repealing this act; this was by a people called "free and enlightenin order, however, to make the bill more pala- | ed." He had no doubt they would soon be entable, and to remove some of the embarrass-lightened enough to see they had done wrong. If ments which the Senate would otherwise have gentlemen are against finishing these frigates, to encounter, he would move to substitute, in- why do they not come forward and declare it? stead of the word "repeal," the words "suspend Let us sell them, said he, at public auction. for years." What will be the effect if we have it told at our wharves that we object to man them, because we have peace with Algiers? He hoped they would be manned, or else have tacked to the bill, that, when finished, they were to be sold for East Indiamen or something. If that were gentlemen's wish, this was the time to come forward and say so, and let it be put in the bill. He would ask, Was there any thing in the name of Government, if it operated in this manner? It was extraordinary conduct, indeed. Mr. Corr thought the very beginning of the frigates a wild notion, and hoped the most distant idea of manning them would not enter gentlemen's minds; he should therefore oppose the motion. Mr. VENABLE said, it seemed the gentleman who moved the amendment did not think it necessary the ships should now be manned. The operation of the amendment appeared to put it in the power of one branch of the Legislature, at a future day, to man the ships, and send them to sea. He was surprised at the changeableness of the gentleman who moved and favored the equipment. When a naval armament was first proposed, it was objected to, as looking like forming a Naval Establishment. They then told us it was expressly to repel the encroachments of the Algerines; and that, as soon as peace was obtained with that power, the building of them was to stop. Now they come forward, and avow a desire to have a Navy Establishment. Thus originate evils which if not stopped early, would spread and become dangerous. The only fair argument they have on the subject is, that a Navy is now become necessary. Certain it is, that, if they intend to have a Naval Establishment, to protect our commerce and repel our injuries, three frigates will be very incompetent to the object. He should not object to finishing them, and only because so much had been expended on them already, but should ever oppose fitting them for sea Mr. SWANWICK asked the gentleman what security there was in a peace with Algiers? Could he say we were at peace with them now? Certainly we are in a worse situation with that power now than then; we are parting with our cash, (which makes it such a scarce article,) and yet we have no benefit. Now it is said it is altogether a vision-a fancy or a dream. Then gentlemen get up and ask what we are to do Gentlemen say they will not vote to finish these frigates, except the repeal for manning is included. When it goes up to the Senate, may they not say they will not vote to finish, except it be to man them? But, Mr. S. said, he supposed gentlemen depended upon negotiation, if any thing was wrong. What were the consequences of our late negotiation? We have two things before us-treaty or ships. As for treaty, we have seen our money sent across the Atlantic, and scattered a thousand ways: this was throwing it into the ocean. He had heard of a Doge of Venice throwing a ring into the sea to marry it: it seemed this money was gone for the same purpose, and its use would be no better than the Doge's ring. He thought the most complete treaty was, power to resist aggression. This business of negotiation is very unprofitable. You may obtain fair promises from foreign ministers, but very poor redress, if any. The question on the amendment was put and lost-ayes 30, noes 51. Mr. HARRISON moved for the committee to rise and report the bill without amendments. Mr. NICHOLAS said, it seemed that gentlemen were making a new business of this. At the time it was brought forward, gentlemen voted in favor of it, because the law was to be repealed. He voted to separate the bills, because he conceived it would not be right to say to the Senate, You shall do two things together, or neither. He hoped the committee would rise, that the House may not have such power over the business as to keep it back. If the other bill pass the Senate, said he, we can take up this, and pass it in a short time. Mr. PARKER thought this a most extraordinary procedure, to say we will not pass the appropriation bill till we know the Senate have agreed to that for repealing. He thought the Senate had as great a right to exercise their discretion as that House. He never expected to have heard such expressions. This was holding out a dictum for their conduct: this he thought neither fair nor proper. Mr. VENABLE thought the bills were connected. He wished to vote merely for finishing the frigates. He hoped the committee would not rise, but that it might be so amended as to add the other bill to it. When he voted for the appropriation, he said, he voted for it only in such a manner as should be reconcilable with his judgment. If the gentleman would waive his motion, and the House would so connect it, he should be gratified. Mr. HARRISON said, as the last gentleman's ideas were fully to his purpose, he should withdraw his motion. On motion being made for connecting the bills Mr. Buck hoped it would not prevail. The only reason he saw to object, (and he thought that very forcible,) was, that it discovered a jealousy in that House of another branch of the Government, which he thought very unjustifiable. He had voted for the repeal, but should not vote for the appropriation. He thought they ought to act for themselves, without reference to the other branch. Any member may vote which way he pleased, but to say he would not vote for one without they go to the other, was unfair. He could see no justice in such a mistrust from this branch of the Legislature. Suppose, he said, the bills go to the Senate separately, they may concur in the appropriation, and reject the appeal. Even in that situation, were it to be left, the Executive could not man the frigates, unless they could obtain further appropriations-to obstruct which would be preferable, and would put it out of the power of the Senate to embarrass the House. Mr. VENABLE said his vote was given without any relation whatever to the Senate. He thought any act passed by this House could not, when sent up to the Senate, be termed disrespectful, for each branch had a right to act for themselves. He was surprised to hear the gentleman last up say he should not vote this appropriation; for he had heard him say, on a former occasion, that he would vote an appropriation for any treaty, law, or whatever should exist to call for it. Mr. V. confessed himself to be of a very different opinion; for he always thought the House had a discretionary power to grant it or not, but that gentleman had long said it had none. Mr. Buck said, as his doctrines had been called in question, he must beg indulgence to [H. or R. explain. He never said that the House had not a right to judge on the propriety of appropriation in an existing law. He conceived a treaty quite another thing. The PRESIDENT and Senate have a constitutional power to make a treaty; in that, he said, he did advocate that that House had no right to withhold appropriations; but in laws, where the power of making appropriations rests partly in that House, they had a right to grant or withhold. This, he said, he had always held. Mr. NICHOLAS said, this appeared to him a very unreasonable clamor in behalf of the Senate. The gentleman last up seemed very careful not to awaken the jealousy of the Senate. How could he know what part would awaken that idea of disrespect? He had formed his mind to vote on the subject, and surely every member might do so, without a fear of showing disrespect to another branch. The gentleman had said that this House may refuse to appropriate for a law. Now, suppose the Senate refuse to repeal without we appropriate, we are then forced to choose one of two evils. Very often, Mr. N. said, the House were obliged to appropriate for a law, it may be, so far executed that they could not refuse. Suppose the PRESIDENT should, after this, appoint officers to enlist men for the frigates, how could the House refuse to pay them? While a law existed to man these ships, it would be difficult to prevent it: it would enable those who were friendly to the measure to carry it into effect. He hoped, therefore, the House would not run the risk by leaving it open to such possible intrusion. Mr. S. SMITH thought this was a very unfair way of doing business, but he had been used to such things. He thought this form of tacking was very improper and unfair. It had been observed thet we were the most free and enlightened people, but he thought those who advocated these measures proved the very contrary. Mr. SWANWICK said, it appeared to him a kind of Legislative stratagem. The whole intention of the business could be easily discovered. If there was nothing improper, why should they fear to trust the Senate with it? Having the yeas and nays on both bills, gentlemen could not easily excuse them for voting for the repeal, as it would go out into the country that many had voted contrary to their arguments. Thus we are forced to vote against our own opinion, or not have the frigates finished. He could plainly see that gentlemen meant to defeat the object, and, he thought, in a very unfair way. Mr. W. LYMAN spoke much of the impolicy and impropriety of the measures of those gentlemen who supported naval preparations. Some time back, he said, those very gentlemen were advising us to cultivate our land, and not regard commerce-it was a broken reed to depend on; but now, they want to put the nation to an enormous expense to protect that commerce they thought so lightly of! The frigates would bills. [FEBRUARY, 1797 He thought it more candid and fair to have both the objects before the Senate at one time than to separate them. If they think it an attack upon their privileges they would act consistently therewith. cost more than double the money which was at | ning," that we wish a connection of these first estimated: this would be a disgrace to any nation. The whole process of the business had been bad, and he had no doubt but the estimate now before the House would be found deficient. Though he thought a small Navy would be useful, yet, until he saw its process conducted more fairly, and with more discretion, he should not vote a shilling to it: for the waste of money which had been discovered in this, had given him a distaste to it. A remark having fallen from Mr. L., on the constitutionality of this appropriation Mr. W. SMITH said, that, what the gentleman observed, only respected an Army. The constitution says, an appropriation for the Army shall not be made for more than two years, but it said not a word about restricting a Navy; and it is certain that the framers of the constitution had a view to a Navy, as in three different parts it makes mention of it. [Here Mr. S. read those parts from the constitution.] The question was not whether to repeal the law or not, but whether the appropriation bill was to be tacked to the repeal. When before taken up, a majority voted for two bills, and they are accordingly reported, and now the two are to be united. This, said he, is directing the Senate to vote a certain way, because this House saw it right. This was a kind of coercion which would oblige them (if they support their independence, which they certainly will) to reject the repeal. This, he said, was a spirit which every gentleman in the House felt. He therefore hoped there would be two bills. Mr. WILLIAMS could not see where the difference was, whether the bills were apart or not. He was sorry any jealousy should be discovered towards another branch; if the amendment were to go to the Senate they had power to reject any part. The next Congress would take a view of the subject, and do what they thought right, as the frigates would not be fit to be manned till then. Mr. Buck again repeated his objections to uniting the bills. Mr. N. SMITH thought there could be no good reasons for uniting the bills. There had not yet been any appropriation made, and the money was nearly expended; he thought the appropri ation should be passed immediately, as he had no doubt but both Houses would ultimately unite in this object. If, therefore, any money was to be appropriated, let it be done, and then if the House thought proper to agree to the repeal, it could be done, as no delay ought to be made. The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) said the other day, that he would not, under any situation, vote the supply until he knew whether there was any intention to fit them for sea or not. This, Mr. S. thought the principal point; but except that gentleman, with others, thought the ships were to remain in the same situation as at present, it certainly was necessary to agree to the appropriations; this was voted on all hands, though some could not agree to go all lengths. He did not believe many could be found in the House who would wish them to remain and rot on the stocks; but for gentlemen to say they would not agree to grant the supply except the other part was repealed, he thought wrong. It was true, they had the power to withhold even appropriations for the PRESIDENT's salary, Senate, &c., but if such opposition was supported, Government could not long exist. That House had power over the Senate, and, vice versa, the Senate over that House-each had a right to think and do as they pleased, but it would be wrong in one to curtail the privilege of the other by an ill-timed opposition; this was merely to show a spleen which could not but be to the detriment and delay of business. Mr. GALLATIN did not conceive this a question on the constitution; it was not on the power of the House as to the subject of appropriation, but merely on connecting the two bills. He conceived it perfectly right and proper to connect them, because the subject of them was the same. It was not novel: appropriation and repeal had before been connected. Indeed, he thought it improper to hold the Senate in any consideration at all. He should not be guided by any apprehensions of what they would do. The gentleman last up had said, it was unfair to connect them, as it would oblige members who opposed one to vote for both. Now, a majority will always decide, and those in the minority will always be affected. That gentleman would rather take a question on each; but Mr. G. said he would rather on both together. But both will not be material, more than in a certain degree. He further observed that a decision had been come to to keep the subjects apart. This, Mr. G. said, was only in order to give leave to the committee to report one or two bills. But that could not now affect the decision. The House might now do as they pleased. He looked upon the first act of the law as rather explanatory of the other. A law passed last year for the equipment of the frigates. The first law expired as to the manning them. It is therefore only for fear the word "equipment" should be so construed as to mean "man-ayes 41, noes 36. Mr. W. SMITH rose to answer some observations made by Mr. GALLATIN and Mr. VENABLE, and proceeded to show the impropriety of tacking the bills; he said it would produce insurmountable difficulties. He never could agree to this tortus discordans being sent up to the Senate. Mr. VENABLE answered. The question was then put for tacking the two bills, and carried, |