H. OF R.] Cession of Louisiana to France. [JANUARY, 1803, America what she pleased; much less give her | isting treaties, or as she shall receive it at the a new neighbor, under circumstances different time of delivery? All these circumstances it from those by which she held the province. He was necessary for Congress to know, before was not, however, then disposed to discuss the they could act correctly. abstract question involved in this subject. He trusted the resolution calling for information would be agreed to. The House need not fear that, in asking this information, they would not speak the sense of the people; and, if other measures were necessary, they would also, in adopting them, speak the sense of the nation. Mr. BACON said it was not uncommon to hear of extraordinary occurrences in that House. One mode of reasoning yesterday had great weight, that asserted a connection between the resolution and the subject of New Orleans, which had been taken up and referred to a committee with closed doors. One subject appeared to him to be not only nearly connected, but to form an essential part of the other. For what purpose this resolution should be separated from the general subject, he could not conceive. Why do we want information, but that we may have a more clear view of the general subject? He could not see any detached purpose for which it was required. Why then divide it into little detached parts? Until he could hear reasons for such a division, he should be against the reference. Mr. HEMPHILL observed that the gentleman was mistaken in what passed yesterday. The gentleman from Maryland had first stated the subjects as similar; that ground was afterwards abandoned, and they were considered as distinct. There were only two points connected with the subject before the House in which documents could be required or secrecy necessary. The one related to the cession of Louisiana; the other to the shutting the port of New Orleans. The former, though not referred to a committee, was as important as the latter, which had been referred. In the last case we deemed it important to have and request papers. The resolution before them related to the first point; it had been deemed of sufficient importance to refer it to a committee, and this afforded good reasons for calling for papers respecting the cession. He begged leave to refer to the Message, which says the cession" will, if carried into effect, make a change in the aspect of our foreign relations, which will doubtless have just weight in any deliberations of the Legislature connected with that subject." The House will perceive that the language of the Message is hypothetical-the words are, "if carried into effect." How then can we deliberate on this subject, unless we know the degree of probability there is, that it will be carried into effect? A knowledge of the circumstances necessary to ascertain this, appeared to be absolutely indispensable. What necessity there was for secrecy in the discussion of this resolution, Mr. HEMPHILL could not conceive. All the information we have on the subject is contained in the President's Message, which every person in the United States knows as well as we do. It appeared to him that when their deliberations turned on facts which every body knew, they ought to be public. His ideas of secrecy were these: that policy might require certain facts to be kept secret for a time; but, when made known, their arguments on them ought not to be secret. In this opinion he was strengthened by the rule of the House. [Mr. H. here read the rule on that point, which prescribes that the gal leries shall be cleared whenever a confidential communication shall be received from the President, or whenever the Speaker or any other member shall inform the House that he has communications to make which he conceives ought to be kept secret.] Mr. H. asked on which branch of this rule could the arguments of gentlemen be predicated? The President had not sent them a confidential communication, nor had any member said he had communica tions to make which he conceived ought to be kept secret. The information referred to in the rule meant facts, and not arguments drawn from facts. He concluded by saying he saw DO occasion whatever for discussing this proposition with closed doors. Mr. DAWSON.-The gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. LOWNDES) says there is a material connection between the shutting the port of New Orleans and the cession of Louisiana. After, then, that part of the discussion which related to New Orleans had been ordered to be conducted with shut doors, how proper was it in him to introduce into debate a subject intimately connected with it? His opposition to the present motion did not arise from an indisposition fully to discuss the subject to which it referred; but from an indisposition to delay the discussion of the motion offered by his colleague. Against the present motion he should vote, because it promised nothing useful, and might be mischievous. We have been told that this subject is important and pressing. That it was important he felt; but he did not believe it was pressing. He could say, if the time should ever arrive when it became that House to act, this was not the time. When the time did arrive, he was prepared to act. Gentlemen were very anxious on this subject. He rejoiced to witness their anxiety. But he and his friends were not now to hear who were the friends of the Western country. The people of that counIf likely to be carried into effect, the next try doubted not the protection of the Governquestion is, as to the time when it will be car-ment. They were warmly attached to the Govried into effect. When these two inquiries ernment, and knew that every thing would be were solved, another naturally offered itself: done, that ought to be done, to protect and deIs France to take the province subject to ex-fend their rights. JANUARY, 1803.] Cession of Louisiana to France. [H. OF R. Mr. BACON said, if he understood the gentle- | rass the decision of this House on this great man from Pennsylvania, (Mr. HEMPHILL,) he perfectly agreed with him in opinion, that this resolution was connected with the subject of New Orleans. He agreed with him as to their inseparable connection. But the only difference was that they inferred opposite consequences from the same premises. He, Mr. B., contended that the resolution made a part of the same general subject, and ought not to be divided from it. They say it ought to be divided. Mr. HEMPHILL, replied that he had spoken as plainly as he could. He had said the subjects were distinct. Mr. GODDARD.-The gentleman from Massachusetts yesterday told us the call for information ought to be public, though the information itself should be secret. This reasoning had been satisfactory to him then; he had hoped it would have also proved so to-day. But it appears that he is now for sending us to a secret committee. Mr. G. said in his opinion, the call ought to be public, whatever the nature of the information might be. This information gentlemen will either deny or grant. They say it is not to be denied. Why then go into a committee? And if granted, why not grant it without assigning reasons, as well as with assigning them? Are we to be told by the gentleman from Virginia, there is no occasion for this call; that we have information enough? How does that honorable gentleman get his information? If from the cabinet, are we, the representatives of the people, to obtain it from him? Surely this will be degrading to our characters. We may believe it is true as coming from him, but, as representatives, we should spurn at receiving it in such a channel. We want official information, but gentlemen say they want to go into secret committee on this resolution. What will be the good of this? Though he could not say what was done in secret yesterday, he might say what had not been done. They had done nothing; and if they went into secret session again, the consequence would be the same. question. Sir, I am content that gentlemen should repeat after each other the trite observations which have been so often reiterated of the magnitude of the object in question. I am content that they should make the best possible display of their ardor on this occasion. But wherefore this exhibition of a zeal so inordinate as to arrogate to itself all sensibility to the national welfare? Since gentlemen insist upon it, since they provoke the discussion, I must request to be indulged in some remarks on the history of this subject. And in reply to the gentleman from Connecticut, (Mr. GodDARD,) I must be permitted to observe that such of my information as may have been derived from the Executive is equally accessible to every member of this House, and I believe to every reputable citizen in the Union, who chooses to apply for it. That, however, which I am about to present, is derived from a source accessible to the whole world. It is to be found in a document of inestimable value, (the debates of the Virginia Convention in 1788,) and might truly be said to be official. It is an account given in his official character of member of Congress, and under the old confederation, by that able and eminent man, that faithful and illustrious public servant, the late Governor of Virginia, to the Convention of that State, at their requisition. At his own suggestion the Legislature of the State had declined to insist upon it. To the Convention it was given, (however reluctantly,) as to a paramount authority. [Here Mr. R. read Mr. Monroe's speech.]* "After some desultory conversation, Mr. MONROE spoke as follows: Mr. Chairman-My conduct respecting the transactions of Congress upon this interesting subject, since my return to the State, has been well known to many worthy gentlemen here. I have been often called upon before this, in a public line, and particularly in the last Assembly, whilst I was present, for information in regard to these transactions; but have heretofore declined it, and for reasons that were held satisfactory. Being amenable, upon the principles of the Federal compact, to the Legislature, for my conduct in Congress, it cannot be doubted, if required, it was my duty to obey their directions; but that honorable body thought it best to dispense with such demand. The right in this *This speech, delivered in the Virginia Convention which ratified the Federal constitution, is the only full and perfect account of the transaction to which it refers that has ever been published. It refers to the design in the Congress of sippi for 25 or 80 years in return for some commercial privileges from Spain-a design which Mr. Monroe was mainly Mr. RANDOLPH felt extremely reluctant to rise in this stage of the discussion, but he deemed it time to repel insinuations so frequently thrown out as perhaps to gain some credit, if they were permitted to pass entirely unnoticed. We are averse to take up the motion of the gentleman from Connecticut, and wherefore? Because, as our opponents would fain have it believed, we are insensible to the vast interest affected by the obstruction of the Mississippi? No, sir, because we are alive to this delicate and momentous subject; because we wish to act upon it; because we wish to go into cominstrumental in defeating, and for which he deserved still mittee on the confidential Message of the Exec-higher rewards than honor and gratitude. His reluctance utive; because the information required by the motion before you is not necessary to determine us in the course which we ought, and, I trust, will pursue; and because these preliminary questions, whatever be their object, are, in effect, only calculated to retard and to embar VOL. II.-45 the confederation to give up the navigation of the Missis to give the history of this transaction arose from its secret nature, the Congress of the confederation sitting upon it with closed doors, and the members being under injunctions not to disclose what was done. Its essentiality to a knowledge of the political history of the times must be apparent to all who read it. Assembly is unquestionably more complete, having power paramount to that; but even here I could wish it had not been exerted as I understand it to be, by going into committee for that purpose. Before, however, I enter into this subject, I cannot but observe, it has given me pain to hear it treated by honorable gentlemen in a manner that has appeared not altogether free from exception. For they have not gone into it fully, and given a proper view of the transaction in every part, but of those only which preceded, and were subsequent to that, which had been the particular object of inquiry; a conduct that has seemed too much calculated to make an impression favorable to their wishes in the present instance. But, in making this observation, I owe it to those gentlemen to declare, that it is my opinion such omission has proceeded, not from intention, but their having forgotten facts, or to some cause not obvious to me, and which I make no doubt they will readily explain. (JANUARY, 1803. In shor, does it a loan of money accomplished? "After the peace, it became the business of Cogress to investigate the relation of these States to be different powers of the earth, in a more exter view than they had hitherto done, and particularly in the commercial line; and to make arrangements fr entering into treaties with them on such terms as might be mutually beneficial for each party. As the result of the deliberations of that day, it was resolved, 'That commercial treaties be formed, if possible, with said powers, those of Europe in particular, Spain included, upon similar principles; and three Commissioners, Mr. Adams, Mr. Franklin, and Mr. "The policy of this State, respecting this river, Jefferson, be appointed for that purpose.' So that has always been the same. It has contemplated but an arrangement for a treaty of commerce with Spain one object, the opening it for the use of the inhab- had already been taken. Whilst these powers wer itants, whose interest depended on it; and in this she in force, a representative from Spain arrived, authorhas, in my opinion, shown her wisdom and magnanim-ized to treat with the United States on the interfer ity. I may, I believe, with propriety say, that all the measures that have at any time been taken by Congress for that purpose, were adopted at the instance of this State. There was a time, it is true, sir, when even this State, in some measure, abandoned the object, by authorizing its cession to the Court of Spain. But let us take all circumstances into view, as they were at that time, and I am per-resentative of Spain, which did not stipulate our right suaded it will by no means show a departure from this liberal and enlightened system of policy, although it may manifest an accommodation to the exigencies which pressed on us at the time. The Southern States were overrun, and in possession of the enemy. The governments of South Carolina and Georgia were prostrate, and opposition there at an end. North Carolina made but a feeble resistance; and Virginia herself was greatly harassed by the enemy in force at that time in the heart of the country, and by impressments for her own and the defence of the Southern States. In addition to this, the finances of the United States were in a deplorable condition, if not totally exhausted; and France, our ally, seemed anxious for peace; and as the means of bringing the war to a more happy and speedy conclusion, the object of this cession was the hopes of uniting Spain in it with all her forces. If I recollect aright, too, at this moment, the Minister of the United States, at the Court of Madrid, informed Congress of the difficulty he found in prevailing upon that Court to acknowledge our independence, or take any measure in our favor, suggested the jealousy with which it viewed our settlements in the Western country, and the probability of better success, provided we would cede the navigation of this river, as the consideration. The latter circumstances were made known to the Legislature, and they had their weight. All inferior objects must yield to the safety of the society itself. A resolution passed to that effect. An act of Congress likewise passed; and the Minister of the United States had full authority to relinquish this valuable right to that Court, upon the condition above stated. But what was the issue of this proposition? Was any treaty made with Spain that obtained any acknowledgment of our independence, although at war with Great Britain; and such acknowledgment would have cost her nothing? Was ing claims of the two nations, respecting the Missis January, 1803.] Cession of Louisiana to France. [H. OF R. communications of the Secretary were referred to a Committee of the whole House. The Delegates of the seven easternmost States voted that the ultimata in the Secretary's instructions be repealed; which was reported to the House, and entered on the journal by the Secretary of Congress, that the question was carried. Upon this entry, a constitutional question arose to this effect: Nine States being necessary, by the Federal Constitution, to give an instruction; and seven having repealed a part of an instruction so given, for the formation of a treaty with a foreign power, so as to alter its import, and authorize, under the remaining part thereof, the formation of a treaty, on principles altogether different from what the said instruction originally contemplated, can such remaining part be considered as in force, and constitutionally obligatory?' We pressed on Congress for a decision on this point often, but without effect. Notwithstanding this, I understood it was the intention of the Secretary to proceed and conclude a treaty, in conformity to his project, with the Minister of Spain. In this situation I left Congress. What I have since heard, belongs not to me to discover. Other gentlemen have more ample information of this business, in the course it has taken, than I can possibly have been able to obtain; for, having done my duty whilst there, I left it for others who succeeded me to perform theirs, and I have made but little further inquiry respecting it. The animated pursuit that was made of this object, required, and, I believe, received, as firm an opposition. The Southern States were on their guard, and warmly opposed it. For my part, I thought it my duty to use every effort in Congress for the interest of the Southern States. But so far as it depended on me, with my official character, it ceased. With many of those gentlemen, to whom I always considered it as my particular misfortune to be opposed, I am now in habits of correspondence and friendship; and I am concerned for the necessity which has given birth to this relation. dation of the treaty; for if it is formed agreeable | rightly, all that the committee wish to possess. The thereto, good faith requires that it be ratified. The practice of Congress has also been always, I believe, in conformity to this idea. The instructions under which our commercial treaties have been made, were carried by nine States. Those under which the Secretary now acted were passed by nine States. The proposition, then, would be, that the powers which, under the constitution, nine States only were competent to, should be transferred to a committee, and the object thereby to disengage himself from the ultimata already mentioned in his existing instructions. In this light the subject was taken up, and on these principles discussed. The Secretary, Mr. Jay, being called before Congress to explain the difficulties mentioned in his letter, presented to their view the project of a treaty of commerce, containing, as he supposed, advantageous stipulations in our favor, in that line; in consideration for which we were to contract to forbear the use of the navigation of the river Mississippi for the term of 25 or 30 years, and earnestly advised our adopting it. The subject now took a decided form; there was no further ambiguity in it, and we were surprised, for reasons that have been already given, that he had taken up the subject of commerce at all. We were greatly surprised it should form the principal object of the project, and that a partial or temporary sacrifice of that interest, for the advancement of which the negotiation was set on foot, should be the consideration proposed to be given for it. But the honorable Secretary urged, that it was necessary to stand well with Spain; that the commercial project was a beneficial one, and should not be neglected; that a stipulation to forbear the use contained an acknowledgment, on her part, of the right in the United States; that we were in no condition to take the river, and therefore gave nothing for it; with other reasons which, perhaps, I have forgotten; for the subject in detail has nearly escaped my memory. We differed with the honorable Secretary, almost in every respect. We admitted, indeed, the propriety of standing well with Spain, but supposed we might accomplish that end, at least, on equal terms. We considered the stipulation to forbear the use, as a species of barter, that should never be countenanced in the councils of the American States, since it might tend to the destruction of the society itself; for a forbearance of the use of one river, might lead to more extensive consequences; to that of the Chesapeake, the Potomac, or any other of the rivers that emptied into it. In short, that the councils of the confederacy should be conducted with more magnanimity and candor, should contemplate the benefit of all parts upon common principles, and not the sacrifice of one part for that of another. There appeared to us a material difference between stipulating by treaty to forbear the use, and not being able to open the river. The former would be considered by the inhabitants of the Western country as an act of hostility; the latter might be justified by our inability. And, with respect to the commercial part of the project, we really thought it an ill-advised one on its own merits solely. "Thus was this project brought before Congress, and so far as I recollect, in this form, and upon these principles. It was the subject of tedious and lengthy discussion in that honorable body. Every distinct measure that was taken I do not now remember, nor do I suppose it of consequence. I have shown the outlines of the transaction, which is, if I apprehend "Whether the Delegates of those States spoke the language of their constituents; whether it may be considered as the permanent interest of such States to depress the growth and increasing population of the Western country, are points which I cannot pretend to determine. I must observe, however, that I always supposed it would, for a variety of reasons, prove injurious to every part of the Confederacy. These are well understood, and need not be dilated on here. If, however, such should be the interest of seven States, let gentlemen contemplate the consequences in the operation of the Government, as it applies to this subject. I have always been of opinion, sir, that the American States, to all national objects, had, in every respect, a common interest. Few persons would be willing to bind them together by a stronger or more indissoluble bond, or give the National Government more power than myself. I only wish to prevent it from doing harm, either to States or individuals; and the rights and interests of both, in a variety of instances, in which they are now left unprotected, might, in my opinion, be better guarded. If I have mistaken any facts, honorable gentlemen will correct me. If I omitted any, and it has not been intentional, so I shall be happy with their assistance to supply the defect. "Mr. Monroe added several other observations, the purport of which was, that the interest of the Western country would not be as secure under the proposed constitution as under the Confederation; because, H. OF R.] Cession of Louisiana to France. [JANUARY, 1805 under the latter system, the Mississippi could not be interests of this Union? It is not my wish. relinquished without the consent of nine States, on this occasion, to cast gentlemen opposed to whereas by the former, he said, a majority of seven us into the shade-to throw them into the back States could yield it. His own opinion was, that it ground. All we ask is an equal share of confwould be given up by a majority of the Senators pres-dence in our zeal to assert this great right, ent in the Senate, with the President, which would until we shall have proved ourselves unworthy put it in the power of less than seven States to surof it. What is there then exhibited from the render it. That the Northern States were inclined to yield it. That it was their interest to prevent an augmentation of the Southern influence and power; and that as mankind in general, and States in particular, were governed by interest, the Northern States would not fail of availing themselves of the opportunity given them by the constitution of relinquishing that river, in order to depress the Western country, and prevent the Southern interest from preponderating. "Mr. HENRY then rose and requested that the honorable gentleman (Mr. Monroe) would discover the rest of the project, and what Spain was to do on her part, as an equivalent for the cession of the Mississippi. Mr. MONROE.-Mr. Chairman, I do not thoroughly recollect every circumstance relative to this project. But there was to be a commercial intercourse be earliest period of our history? What fact has The sentiments which have been displayed in the course of this proceeding, present a pheno menon in the history of what are termed regu lar Governments. When an Administration have formed the design of subverting the publie liberties of enriching themselves or their adherents out of the public purse, or of crushing all opposition beneath the strong hand of power tween the United States and Spain. We were to be allowed to carry our produce to the ports of Spain, and the Spaniards to have an equal right of trading hither. It was stipulated that there should be a reciprocity of commercial intercourse and benefits between the subjects of Spain and the citizens of the United States. The manufactures of Spain were to be freely imported and vended in this country, and war has ever been the favorite ministerial our manufactures to be carried to Spain, &c., without specific. Hence have we seen men in power obstruction, and both parties were to have mutual too generally inclined to hostile measures, and privileges in point of commercial intercourse and con- hence the opposition have been, as uniformly, nection. This, sir, is the amount of the project of the champions of peace-not choosing to nerve Spain, which was looked upon as advantageous to with new vigor (the natural consequence of us. I thought myself that it was not. I considered Spain as being without manufactures, as the most war) hands, on whose hearts or heads they slow in the progress of arts, and the most unwise, were unwilling to bestow their confidence. But with respect to commerce, of all nations under the how shall we account for the exception which sun, (in which respect I thought Great Britain the is now exhibited to this hitherto received maxwisest.) Their gentlemen and nobles look on com-im? On the one part the solution is easy. An merce with contempt. No man of character among Administration under which our country flourthem willundertake it. They make little discrimi-ishes beyond all former example-with no sinnation with any nation. Their character is to shut out all nations, and exclude every intercourse with them, and this would be the case with respect to us. Nothing is given to us by this project, but what is given to all other nations. It is bad policy, and unjustifiable on such terms to yield that valuable right. Their merchants have great stocks in trade. It is not so with our merchants. Our people require encouragement. Mariners must be encouraged. On a review of these circumstances, I thought the project unwise and impolitic." Having completed the reading, Mr. R. resumed his remarks. I have, said he, to ask pardon of the House for detaining them with the reading of so lengthy a document. That it contains perhaps the only correct historical detail extant of this truly curious transaction, must constitute my apology. I will now ask, Mr. Speaker, who ever have been, and still are, the unshaken friends of the navigation of the Mississippi, and of the Western The famous orator. ister views-seeking to pay off the public en- |