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H. or R.]

Compensation to Public Officers.

[FEBRUARY, 1797.

City, which would be attended with a good | real distress in Government for want of money; deal of expense to the PRESIDENT. He should wish, therefore, that a provision should be made for defraying that expense, and also for the purchasing of new furniture, but he should be opposed to the making of any addition to the salary at present.

Mr. HARTLEY spoke in favor of retaining the clause.

Mr. R. SPRIGG said he should vote against the proposed advance of salary, and could not consent to any other mode of augmenting the present compensation allowed to the PRESIDENT. He could by no means agree to the plan proposed by the gentleman from Virginia; for, if they were to renew the furniture of the PRESIDENT every four or eight years, it would be found a pretty expensive business. That gentleman had also mentioned the removal of the Government, as taking place during the next Presidency; but, he said, the new election would happen about the time of removing the Government, and provision for paying that expense might be made at that time. He thought the salaries were already sufficiently high, and that it would be with difficulty that money was found to pay the present expenses of Government.

but their difficulties arose from a difference of opinion in that House on the mode of raising money. He believed there were persons who thought Government squandered away the public money; that its officers divided the loaves and fishes amongst them; and that the only way in which this profusion of expense could be checked was by pursuing a system of direct taxation, which would make the people feel the amount which they contributed to the support of Government. He should not undertake to examine this principle, nor deny that such facts might exist. It would be enough to look at existing circumstances in our country, and see how far they would apply. Our Government, he said, rested on public sentiment for support, and must always be regulated by it. He was willing, he said, to go all lengths with gentlemen in adopting a system of taxation calculated to raise a permanent revenue. Nor was he apprehensive for the result, when dictated by reason and justice.

Contemptible must be that state of Government, said Mr. B., where its public officers are starved for want of a proper spirit in the people to support them. Is America, said he, arrived at this melancholy state? If she were, God forbid she should ever experience another revolution! Is this all our boasted acquisition, in return for the struggle we have made for our country? No; he denied the fact. America was not reduced to that state which will not allow her to pay the expenses of her Government, nor is she unwilling to pay them; neither is public sentiment so debased as not to approve of any measure which shall be taken to secure a handsome maintenance for our officers. There was no occasion for hypocrisy in the business; he was willing to state the whole truth plainly to his constituents. He should not think of telling them they were giving too high salaries for their officers, when he knew, that, owing to their insufficiency, they were diminishing their own private fortunes. Nor did he wish to intrench on his own property in serving the public; he believed there was no occasion for this. He should, therefore, speak plainly to them.

Mr. WILLIAMS was of opinion, on the score of economy, that it would be better to advance the compensation of the PRESIDENT in the way proposed by the present bill, and let him purchase his own furniture, than to purchase new furniture, which, perhaps, when the Government was removed, would not be suitable for his house in the Federal City. Mr. W. said he was one of the committee on the subject of compensation, and they endeavored to ascertain whether the twenty-five thousand dollars allowed to the PRESIDENT were an adequate compensation. It was generally believed it was not. They ought, he said, to enable their First Magistrate to live in a style becoming his situation. All their Executive officers should receive such salaries as would enable them to see company agreeably to their rank, otherwise the respectability attached to those offices would suffer greatly in the public opinion. He hoped, therefore, the section would not be struck out. Mr. BUCK said, as the motion now made was Mr. B. said, he would inquire whether the to try the principle, it would be well to go into present salaries were a reasonable and just coman examination of the subject. He said he had pensation for the services performed? In renever been a champion for raising salaries, or a spect to the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, stickler for lowering them; but, as the subject it was said that he had already a large salary. was brought before them, he should cheerfully He knew that twenty-five thousand dollars had declare his sentiments upon it. He conceived a great sound in the ears of many, but he trustthe true question to be, whether it was righted the people of the United States not only and just that they should augment the salaries of the officers of Government and the members of the Legislature, or whether the present compensations were just and adequate to the sacrifices which they made in undertaking the business of Government. Because he did not believe, with some other gentlemen, that they were to estimate the compensations of their officers in proportion as money was scarce or plentiful in the Treasury, nor did he believe there was a

possessed just views of Government, but that they also possessed virtue to support the just measures of Government, and would not consent that their Executive officers should be placed on such a footing as to be looked down by officers from foreign countries who moved in a lower sphere. Therefore, when they looked into the reason of the thing, and found their present salaries were unequal to their support, not in the style of splendor observed in foreign courts,

February, 1797.]

Compensation to Public Officers.

[H. of R.

but according to the manner of living in Phila- |sion, nor did he; he lived in the most economidelphia, would, they not be willing to increase them? He believed they would.

that the citizens of the United States wished it.

cal style; but they wished his reasonable expenses to be paid. Besides, said Mr. B., were The present PRESIDENT, he said, was a man of the rates of compensation, when first establishfortune, and never took from the Government ed, established upon this principle? He thought more than would support his table, either dur- not. They were then thought to be a just and ing the war or during his Presidency. And reasonable compensation; and, if it was not what, he asked, did these expenses amount to? then unreasonable, it could not now be reasonTo the whole sum allowed him by law. But able. Was it right, he asked, when every kind were they always to expect to have a PRESIDENT of labor was higher by one third or one-half who would give his services to his country? than at that time, that the compensations alOr had the PRESIDENT set a bad example, by lowed to persons employed by Government living in a style of extravagance and splendor? should remain stationary? He could not conHe believed this was not the opinion of Ameri-ceive that this was either just or proper, or cans, or that of foreign countries. If, then, the present PRESIDENT had lived upon his own fortune, and the whole of his compensation had gone to defray the expenses of his table, if this compensation was not advanced, how were future Presidents to come forward, to support the same style? They could not do it without infringing on their own fortunes. And do the citizens of the United States, he asked, wish their First Magistrate to be placed in this situation? He could not think so. He believed they meant to make ample provision for his support; and if the present provision was found inadequate, they would condemn their Representatives; they would say they did not support the dignity of their country, if they neglected to advance it.

If any conclusion might be drawn from the practice of individual States, they would be warranted in making the proposed advance, since many of their Legislatures had advanced the pay of their members. Indeed, he believed the people were generally convinced of the necessity of advancing the compensations allowed to the officers of Government and members of the Legislature, under the present circumstances.

Mr. B. said he was not for making a permanent increase of salaries, except to the PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT. He did not conceive that the members of the Legislature ought to have more than was sufficient to support them, without obliging them to infringe upon their own fortunes. He wished the advance thereof to operate no longer than until the present existing circumstances were removed; he should move, therefore, to have the duration of this regulation for one year, instead of two, as it was possible in the mean time the price of living might be so reduced as to make the additional allowance no longer necessary.

Mr. RUTHERFORD said, if gentlemen reasoned

The same observations, Mr. B. said, would apply to the VICE PRESIDENT, and to other officers of Government. He did not wish the salaries of their officers to be such as should enable them to make fortunes out of them, but he would have them sufficient to afford a handsome living. Were they so at present? He believed not. It had been said, the other day, that they could not afford to live in the same style with persons who stood on the same foot-together for a moment, they would be convincing with them before they went into office. ed this measure was altogether improper and He could not say whether they were obliged to unjust. Our present PRESIDENT, said he, is intrench on their own private fortunes; if it looked up to with reverence, as to Cincinnatus, was so, he asked if it were reasonable or just as a good republican. When the commissionthat they should be so placed? It certainly was ers from the Republic of Holland went to treat not; and, therefore, convinced as he was that with Spain, they went in a style of such simthe people of the United States were willing plicity as to command the greatest respect. and able to support the expenses of their Gov- They afterwards appointed a Stadtholder, a ernment, and that they wished their officers to man of great reputation and patriotism doubthave a just and reasonable compensation, which less, like our PRESIDENT; but, as soon as they should not only enable them to make a respect- suffered themselves to lose sight of their simable appearance in the eyes of their own citi-plicity and plainness of manners, and got into zens, but in those of foreigners, he should have the policy and splendor of Courts, they were no scruples in giving his consent to the advances proposed.

As to the compensation allowed to the members of that House, here he had knowledge; he could speak from experience. He could say that he had diminished his income one thousand dollars a year since he had a seat in that House. Did his constituents, he asked, wish this? He believed not. They did not wish him to intrench on his private fortune while he was serving them. They did not expect him to squander away their money in profuVOL. II-5

enslaved by their Stadtholder; for, within these few years, the office of Stadtholder has been declared hereditary. What an extravagance is this; that a man should be born a Stadtholder or a King! While the Roman people maintained their simplicity of manners, while Cincinnatus was amongst them, they were a happy people; but when they lost sight of their plainness of manners, they lost sight of their happiness. Let us look at our sister rising Republic, and observe how they are doing away all pomp and pageantry in their Government and coun

H. or R.]

Naval Equipments.

try, and aiming at a simplicity of manners; but, said he, I fear we have not lost sight sufficient ly of kings, priests, and courts. This was his dread. It was necessary to bound these ideas. Patriotism could not be purchased, and should they despair of getting a man to fill the office of PRESIDENT Without they increased the salary? Must they hire a man for this purpose? No, they should not be obliged to do this; there would always be found men of abilities and patriotism to fill that office, without any view to pecuniary advantage.

[FEBRUARY, 1797 and preserving it, was to take the earliest means to obtain, and secure it, when obtained, for seasonable use. He read an extract from the Secretary of War's report in support of the plan.

Mr. Corr said he was alarmed at the expense of this business. He saw in the report the salaries of two persons already at Norfolk and Portsmouth, for taking care of the timber, at 500 dollars each, 1,000 dollars. If they were to pay at this rate for overlooking the timber for one ship, what might they expect would be the expense of a navy yard?

Mr. DENT said the question was to make an Mr. PARKER said, the persons to whom these amendment by striking out the first section. salaries were paid, took care of the timber at NorBeing in favor of that part which contemplated folk and Portsmouth. It was necessary that some the addition of five thousand dollars to the sal-person should look after it, or it should be dispos ary of the PRESIDENT, and opposed to any addition to that of the VICE PRESIDENT, he wished the question divided, in order to accommodate his vote.

The Chairman said the motion was to strike out the whole section, and it could not be divided.

The motion for striking out was then put and carried-56 members being in favor of it.

Election of President.

A message was received from the Senate informing the House that the VICE PRESIDENT had laid before them the following communication: Gentlemen of the Senate:

In consequence of the declaration made yesterday in the Chamber of the House of Representatives of the election of a President and Vice President of the United States, the record of which has just now been read from your journal by your Secretary, I have judged it proper to give notice that, on the 4th of March next, at 12 o'clock, I propose to attend again in the Chamber of the House of Representatives, in order to take the oath prescribed by the Constitution of the United States to be taken by the President, to be administered by the Chief Justice or such other Judge of the Supreme Court of the United States as can most conveniently attend; and, in case none of those Judges can attend, by the Judge of the District of Pennsylvania, before such Senators and Representatives of the United States as may find it convenient to honor the transaction with their presence.

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The next resolution which came under consideration, was that proposing the purchase of a site for a navy yard.

Mr. PARKER doubted, from the spirit which seemed to be shown on this occasion, that this resolution would not pass.

Mr. W. SMITH hoped this would be agreed to. Whatever gentlemen may now think or determine on, it was probable we should at some time become a naval power; and even with the most distant prospect of that, it would show economy to prepare for it. He said it never could be too soon to begin the business, and the most effectual method of procuring live oak,

ed of; but, in case the present resolution was agreed to, there would be no occasion in future to pay these persons, as all the timber and other materials would be stored in the navy yard. He said he had received an estimate from the War Office of the expense which would be likely to attend the establishment of a navy yard. The expense of 100 acres of land, and all the necessary buildings, was estimated at 37,210 dollars.

Mr. NICHOLAS said, after having squandered so much money in getting timber for these vessels, he thought some change of habit should take place before they embarked largely in this matter. They had given twice or thrice as much as the timber was worth, yet they were now called upon to go on in the same course. It was not a time for going into this business. If such a thing was even proper, two or three years could make but little difference, and there could be little doubt but every thing could then be bought at half price. This, however, was not his principal objection. It was this: he did not want to see any such establishment; a navy would never do any real good to this country, but would increase the unhappiness of it. It would require large sums of money to support it; its benefits were doubtful, and it might be of very mischievous consequence to the nation.

Mr. SWANWICK said he entirely agreed with the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS) that there was a necessity for some change of habit; they appeared to be getting that change at present, and whatever their habits were at present, he supposed they would come right at last. Whatever might be their opinion of the necessity of a naval force, the European nations, he believed, would convince them of the necessity of it, if they only gave them time enough.

It was an extraordinary thing to look at the progress of economy in that House with respect to these frigates. In the first place, six frigates were necessary; they were afterwards reduced to three, and because an officer was appointed to take care of the timber left on hand, a gentleman from Connecticut wondered that $500 should be so employed. A motion had been made to confine the Executive to finish the hulls of the ships only. This would have been

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a strange economy. Indeed, such attempts were made at economy on this business as were never introduced upon any other. The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS) had observed there was no use for ships at all. If the House were of that opinion, such a resolution had better at once be come to; but the strange sort of hesitating conduct which was adopted, exceeded all that he had heard of in legislation.

Had gentlemen who declared these vessels to be of no use, contemplated the situation of this country; that it depended wholly upon commerce for revenue; that that commerce was now put in jeopardy, and that no substitute had been found for the revenue thence arising? And would not all this hesitation, whenever the subject of a navy came under consideration, tempt European nations to continue their unjust depredations upon our property at sea? It certainly would.

But even gentlemen who wished to confine themselves merely to the finishing of the vessels at present, would not surely think it improper for them to establish a navy yard, and to secure timber for future use. Did those gentlemen consider what it was to deprive the country of a rich mine of ship timber? If they hesitated on this subject, they surely did not.

What had been said by the gentleman from Maryland on the subject of Algiers, was very just; and the want of a navy power would have a similar effect upon all our negotiations, as foreign nations would rise or fall in their demands, according to our power at sea. The money thrown away upon Algiers to purchase peace, would have been much better employed in building ships; for if we had a few ships, that power would not have committed the depredations upon us which she had done. And whether the money was paid to Algiers or expended in building ships, it was in both cases for the same purpose, viz: the protection of commerce. But there was this great difference between the two expenditures. In the one case, the dollars were shipped off to a foreign country, and in the other, they were paid to our own citizens. The iron used was from our own mines; the guns from our own manufactories; the hemp, and every other material, were of our own growth and manufacture, so that the money went into the hands of our artisans, manufacturers, and farmers. And, therefore, though the frigates had cost a great deal of money, it was some modification of the expense to consider that the money was gone into the pockets of our own citizens. But, he asked if the loss we sustained for the want of a naval power could be estimated? He said it could not. We not only lost our property, but our seamen, and they were not only lost to us, but were probably in the service of those countries which were committing depredations upon us. The loss of property might be recovered; but a hardy race of seamen once lost, could not be recovered.

[H. OF R.

What an affecting spectacle had we the other day of sixty of these unfortunate men returning from Algerine slavery? They were received into the arms of their country with all the sympathy which the occasion called for; but could gentlemen help feeling, at the same time, for the impotence of our Government, when they recollected that the liberty of these men had been purchased at a very high price from a petty despot? And shall we continue to go on thus, and encourage the Barbary powers to enslave our seamen by showing so great a reluctance to enter upon any measure which might afford a defence against their depredations?

Mr. MURRAY believed it would be a very prudent measure to secure the ship-timber in question; for if we did not, it was probable some foreign nation would get possession of it. He did not know whether the laws of Georgia would permit foreigners to purchase the land upon which his timber grew; but if they would not, it would be no difficult thing to get possession of it through the medium of an individual. If this country were to become a maritime power, and no one who considered the subject for a moment could doubt it, this was too rich a mine to be neglected. What had been said about adopting the Chinese policy, might serve to amuse them; but when they looked at the commerce of the country, it was impossible they should not see the necessity of a naval force to protect that commerce against the depredations of any nation who chose to attack it. Indeed, it was come to this, they must either provide for the protection of commerce, or deny the utility of it, and give it up altogether.

But the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS) was afraid if these frigates were sent out to sea, they would involve us in a war. What! said he, can it be supposed that three frigates would give us that ridiculous kind of spirit which would induce us at any rate to go to war? This would be a species of insanity which he did not think it was probable we should fall into. No: these vessels would serve to protect our coasts, and preserve our commerce from attacks, at least, within a small distance from our own ports. How far they might serve to render us of some importance in the eyes of foreign nations, he could not tell; but he believed that three frigates would have a greater effect in this respect with us, than ten to Sweden, Denmark, or Holland. We lie, said he, near the high road of commerce to the West Indies, and these three frigates, backed by national wealth, would show a disposition to become a maritime power, and would have their effect upon European nations.

Besides, Mr. M. said, these vessels would be the foundation of a future Navy. He was for shaping our means of defence to the means of offence employed against us by other nations; for until the European nations became wise enough to cease from war, it was necessary to provide means of defence against their attacks.

H. OF R.]

Naval Equipments.

[FEBRUARY, 1797.

He should, therefore, always give his support their favorite pursuit. If they, then, were comto every means of national defence. He wished pelled to protect commerce, he asked if there our nation to stand upon a respectable footing was any other way of doing it than by a Navy? as a nation, since the most magnanimous con- He believed not. Treaties afford a feeble and duct was no security against the attacks of very inadequate protection; they were broken foreign powers. He should, therefore, be in whenever it suited the interest of a nation to favor of a naval yard, and of providing ship-break them. Letters of marque might afford timber for future use. some protection; but this would operate as a Mr. HARPER said, the two resolutions respect-heavier tax upon the people than even the suping a naval yard and a provision for timber should come under consideration together; because, if no provision was made for purchasing timber, a naval yard would be of no use.

port of the Navy. The money which a merchant expended in this way would eventually come upon the people in the price which they would be obliged to pay for their merchandise, and the means would be very inadequate to protection.

In China and the East Indies, Mr. H. said, the inhabitants could shut themselves up within their own territory, and avoid any intercourse with foreign nations. In countries so far removed from Europe, as to prevent any one nation from making a monopoly of its trade, this policy might exist. But could America lay up her ships, and say she would open her ports to all nations? No; that very instant you give up your trade to that nation which has the greatest

This question, he said, was capable of being considered under two points of view: the one whether the measure was proper; the other, if the measure was proper, whether it would not be better postponed for the present. Both of these points required a considerable degree of attention. There was a variety of considerations on both sides of the question, and it remained for them to determine for the best. Was it proper for this country, he asked, to turn its attention towards marine strength? Did not our situation, and the circumstances in which we stand, compel us to turn our atten-power at sea; for she will immediately block tion to this object? He thought they did, and for one or two reasons which he would submit to the consideration of the committee.

up your ports, and oblige you to trade with them only. In order, therefore, to trade with all nations, we must be the carriers of our own produce, for other nations would not leave us at liberty to do so. The strongest power would say to the others, you shall not trade with these people, you shall do so and so, or we will go to war with you. You must, therefore, said he, protect your own trade.

It appeared to him out of the question that any kind of commerce should be continued without some ships-of-war to protect it. This was the dilemma in which we were placed. It was said by some gentlemen that this dilemma might be avoided, by suffering commerce to go on unprotected, and subject it to all risks; and Will these resolutions, then, said he, if adoptthat even then, there would be sufficient benefited, tend to this point? He believed they would. arising from it, to induce its continuance. This To provide a dock-yard, and to take care of a he did not believe. If persons engaged in com- supply of timber suitable for the purpose of merce could have no dependence upon the pro-ship-building, were very essential steps. Much tection of Government, a very few years, perhaps a few months more, might convince them that the business could not and ought not to be continued.

expense, he said, would be saved in carrying on the building of several ships together in one yard, instead of having them scattered in different parts of the Union. Timber might also be laid up to season in this yard, so as always to be ready for use; for, he believed that much of the delay which had attended the building of the ships now on the stocks, had been owing to the difficulty which had attended the procuring of proper timber. Besides, Mr. H. said, its being known to foreign nations, that you had provided a dock-yard, would have some weight; it would at least have the appearance of an intention of building a Navy.

The present Government, he said, had only been in existence eight years, and for nearly four of them commerce had been subject to every kind of depredation. The usual calculation with respect to Europe was, that during every ten years, it would be subject to war, and that these wars would have a duration of from six to eight years, in the course of which our property and citizens would be subject to the same violations and injuries which they had for the last four years experienced, if no pro- With respect to the purchasing of land cloth vision was made, by a naval power, to pre-ed with live oak timber, he thought it a very desirable measure. It was well known that Brought to this dilemma, said he, which side this timber was confined to a few spots-a few will you take? Will you give up commerce, or sea islands on the coast of South Carolina and build a Navy to protect it? Besides, he said, Georgia, and some small strips along the seaa great part of our citizens who had been train- shore; and in each of these places there were ed up in commerce from their infancy, could only a few trees of a sufficient size for building not be driven from that kind of employment to large ships. The land upon which these trees which they had always been accustomed. They grew, since the cultivation of cotton had been could not be induced, like the Chinese, to stay introduced into those parts, was become valuaat home; they would be engaged in commerce,ble land for that purpose. This induced the

vent it.

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