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thing in it, and therefore he hoped the motion for a reference would be lost by a decided majority, and this be the last time the business of the House would be entered upon, and the interest and feelings of the Southern States be put in jeopardy, by similar applications.

[H. OF R.

with the constitution, but only asked an amelioration of the severities under which people of their color labored, he thought it ought to be received and committed. He did not think the gentleman who presented it ought to withdraw it, nor was he the least culpable, but executed a duty he conceived him bound to.

Mr. JONES said the petition threw so much aspersion upon the State he represented (Georgia) that he must think it his duty to rise. Why was that State to be selected out from all others? However, he should follow the petition in its parts, in order to show that the petitioners actually had asked what it was not in the power of the House to legislate uponemancipation. It was said to merely affect the

Mr. CHRISTIE said the gentleman was mistaken, if he thought it would be the last time, for a certain society had thought it their duty to present petitions of this nature to Congress every year since he was acquainted with it; but he hoped this, which came from that source, but through other hands, would have the fate of all the rest, and go under the table instead of upon it. As to the fugitive law, he would wish it to be taken up, and if no other member moved it, he should; but not for the pur-slave trade. pose of repeal or weakening, but to make it stronger. There was now a fine laid upon any person who should harbor a black, knowing him or her to be a slave; he wished the provision should be that the persons harboring should know that he or she was not a slave. He mentioned the great desire of his State to prevent kidnapping, for which their laws were very

severe.

Mr. HARPER had hoped that the House so well understood this subject, as to the people who instigated the petitioners to come forward, who well knew that nothing could be done by Congress, as to decide on it instantly. This was the act of a religious body of people whose fanaticism leads them to think it a bounden duty to come to the House every year, though they now come in a different name. By this measure they had discharged their duty; all that now remained was for the House to discharge theirs. He hoped, from the present time, they should merely let the petition be read and pass it over in silence-for he expected that society would continue presenting petitions. The obvious tendency of agitating this question would only be to create discontent in a class of people whom it was out of the power of the Legislature to change the situation of. He called upon gentlemen to say whether a temper of revolt was not more perceptible in that quarter? It was; and what was the cause of it but that they were not let alone by those people; but if others would disturb them, he hoped at least that House would cease to do it.

Mr. DANA said if the petition before the House contained nothing but a farago of the French metaphysics of liberty and equality, he should think that it was likely to produce some of the dreadful scenes of St. Domingo. Or if he believed it was only the effects of a religious fanaticism in a set of men who thought they were doing their duty, though he thought the subject quite out of the power of Congress, he might be disposed to think it quite wrong. But when he perceived a petition, addressed in language which was very decent, and which expressly declared that the petitioners did not wish the House to do what was inconsistent

First, the petitioners contemplated that those people (the slaves) ought to be represented, "with us and the rest of the citizens of the United States." Then they speak of the Federal compact, in which they consider those people as interested in common with others, under these words: "we, the people of the United States of America," &c. I would ask gentlemen whether, with all their philanthropy, they would wish to see those people sitting by their sides deliberating in the councils of the nation? He presumed not. They go on farther and say, "We do not ask for the immediate emancipation of all, but we ask you to prepare the way for the oppressed to go free, that every yoke might be broken, thus keeping up the principle to do unto others as you would they should do unto you." The words need only be read to convince every man what is the tendency of their request. The gentleman farther says that 700,000 men are in bondage. I ask him how he would remedy this evil as he calls it? but I do not think it is any evil; would he have these people turned out in the United States to ravage, murder, and commit every species of crime? I believe it might have been happy for the United States if these people had never been introduced amongst us, but I do believe that they have been immensely benefited by coming amongst us. It was the British Government that transmitted them down to us when in a colonized state; but being here, and being the property of individuals, after obtaining our common liberty, and forming our Federal compact, property and safety were guarantied to every individual and State in the confederation. How then can this House meddle with that part of our property? The General Government has no power over it. With respect to that part of the petition which said that these people were crowded into cellars and transported to Georgia, Mr. J. informed the House that the importation to that State by sea had been prohibited; none had come there by sea for many years, and offenders against that law were fined £100 sterling for each individual thus introduced. He hoped the petition would be treated with the contempt it merited, and thrown under the table.

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Mr. RUTLEDGE rose to move that the question might be decided by yeas and nays. It was a practice he generally was against, and scarcely ever moved, but he considered this of importance sufficient to demand it. It was a question in which the interests of a great number of people in this country were involved. He had no doubt it would be lost by a very great majority, and he thought it would have a good effect to be recorded by how vast a majority it would be lost. He thought it would be some consolation to his constituents, when he returned home, to say how few of the House of Representatives were the supporters of this dangerous petition. Mr. WALN said if he had known that this petition would have caused so much alarm, he certainly should have desired the petitioners not to present it; but if they had still thought it necessary and been desirous of it, he should, as he then thought it within the power of legislation, and still thought so, have presented it. He thought it his duty, whenever any individual conceived himself injured by a law, to receive his petition, and he thought himself in no wise implicated in the manner, form, or subject of the petition, or answerable for it as containing his opinions. If it should be supposed that the assertions in the petition were unfounded, or bore too hard on a certain State, the only way to ascertain that fact was by referring to a committee, that the necessary inquiries might be reported. He again declared his disapprobation at this subject undergoing any discussion, nor would it have taken place had not the gentleman from South Carolina commenced it.

Mr. PLATT conceived that every thing which was brought before that House ought to be committed, unless there was manifest indecency in the language, or it should appear that the relief prayed for could not be granted consistently with the power of the House. In his opinion, except one of these two causes prevented, it unquestionably ought to be thus disposed of. As for indecency of expression, he could perceive none, either in the petition, or in the arguments of the gentlemen who advocated its reference. A third reason indeed might be mentioned, which was, that the persons whose names were signed did not give consent to the petition and therefore it was not their act. Neither of these reasons was proved to have existed.

Although, agreeably to the constitution, Congress could not make any laws to prevent the emigration or importation of any persons whom the several States should, at the adoption thereof think proper to admit, yet Congress could, and had made laws relative to fugitives from justice and previous to the year 1800. It was this law they prayed the amelioration of, and that the power of persons over their slaves might be limited, and that the law might be so amended as to prevent its violation. It was for that, and not for the general abolition of slavery they prayed, and surely they ought to be heard; their prayer ought to be committed for that purpose.

[JANUARY, 1800.

He disclaimed the least desire, but an abhorrence, of any principle that would rob persons of their property, but at the same time he was not such a dupe to words as to be of the opinion held up by a gentleman, that because the French had used the words "reason" and "philosophy" he should discard them, and with them humanity.

Mr. THATCHER thought that to make use of the incapacity of these people to read or write, as an argument against committing their petition, must arise out of prejudice in his colleague against the general object, or he surely never would have resorted to such pitiful, and he might say, mean, virulent remarks, [Mr. T. was here called to order.] This was certainly a "new-fangled doctrine." But the reason why they could not write was because of the degraded state of their minds for want of education; many of them, perhaps, in their youth were in slavery.

The gentleman from Georgia had objected to the reference because the petition contained a system of facts which he said was not true? He (Mr. T.) believed they were true, and thus the dispute was in issue. How was this to be ascertained but by inquiry? If the State of Georgia should prove themselves innocent of that black stain, it would be to their honor. But no, said the gentlemen, "We will not have it examined into, because it will make us out to be as black as the petitioners themselves?"

Mr. EDMOND observed that the gentleman from South Carolina had called for the yeas and nays for a particular purpose, to wit, that it should be seen how few voted for this intermeddling with the property of the people in the Southern States. Mr. E. said he should vote for the reference, and as that opinion would be attached to his conduct, his reasons ought to accompany his vote. He should be as far from wishing to affect the property of the citizens as any gentleman, much less should he wish to affect the constitution. This appeared to him to be a very respectful petition; it mattered not whether the people were black or white; the petition only was to be regarded, and not the color of the persons, who, representing their grievances, asked for such a relief as the constitution could afford them. Surely then, every measure ought to be adopted to alleviate their sufferings. Was it consistent that the House, instead of a reasonable and patient attention, should come forward and treat this complaint with an inattention which passion only could dictate? Was contempt the way to recommend attachment to the Government? This ferment and scorn could not be necessary, but he was sure it was highly improper and inconsistent.

Mr. GALLATIN said that in his opinion there were many parts of the petition exceptionable, but not being so much acquainted with it as might be necessary to form a decision, he could not say whether or not it was in the power of the House to legislate on it. However, seeing

JANUARY, 1800.]

Petition of Free Blacks.

[H. of R.

this much in the situation with other petitions, |jects severally, other laws were found fault with, he felt disposed, and should vote for its refer- particularly those relating to measures of deence. If it should appear improper for Con- fence. These were thought to be improper for gress to legislate on it, then the committee a reference; on which a motion was made to would so report. He said he was not satisfied refer a part, but it was then thought the petithat there was no grievance to which the House tion could not be divided. He submitted to the could apply a remedy; he thought there was gentleman from Pennsylvania a very easy mode such a part. He remembered a petition from of acquiring the object, which was by withDelaware once on one of the complaints, that of drawing the petition and advising the petitioners kidnapping free negroes; therefore, he conceiv- to present one conformable to the decision, and ed it was truth, and could be no insult to the within the constitutional power of the House. States of Delaware and Maryland to mention it. Gentlemen were mistaken in saying that petiIf so, surely an effectual remedy ought to be ap- tions of this kind came annually. The session plied. In the former State he believed they had before last the subject was referred to a commade the punishment death, and yet the evil mittee, who made a suitable report upon it, and was not prevented, if the complaints of the pe- in order to prevent the continual debate, it was titioners were true. resolved to be a proper object of Judicial, and Mr. WALN then withdrew his former motion, not of Legislative cognizance. This brought and moved "that so much of the petition as re- the matter to such an understanding that he lated to the slave trade carried on from any hoped he would have heard no more of it. It part of the United States to any foreign place appeared to have had the good effect of preventor country; and so much of the said petitioning any application during the sitting of last as respected fugitives from justice, or escaped from their masters, be referred to the committee appointed on the 12th day of December last on the subject of the slave trade."

Mr. RUTLEDGE appealed to the Chair to know whether the motion was in order.

Mr. SPEAKER said, perhaps, that was the only deliberative body in the world where a motion, having been made, seconded, and debated, could be withdrawn by either the mover or seconder. But it had been a practice in that House so to do, and there was no rule against it. The motion was therefore perfectly agreeable to order. Mr. RUTLEDGE then moved an adjournment, which was carried-yeas 47, nays 35.

FRIDAY, January 3.

session.

The SPEAKER said the question of order, as now explained by the member from South Carolina, was not understood by the Chair. From all the examination and the fruits of inquiry which the Chair had since acquired, it appeared not to be unusual to refer parts of a subject, for parts of the PRESIDENT's Speech had been referred; also, parts of petitions had frequently been referred; on which account the opinion of the Chair at present, unless an appeal should be made to the House, was, that the motion of the gentleman from Pennsylvania was perfectly in order.

Mr. WALN said it would have been very agreeable to him that the question should have been taken on the motion first made to the House; but, on hearing the warmth with which

BENJAMIN HUGER, from South Carolina, ap- it was contested, and willing to remove the peared, was qualified, and took his seat.

Petition of Free Blacks.

The House resumed the unfinished business of yesterday, on the resolution for referring certain parts of the petition of Absalom Jones and others, when

Mr. RUTLEDGE rose to explain his reasons for moving the adjournment yesterday, as not having arisen from a desire of protracting the debate, but because he conceived the Chair misunderstood him on the point of order. When he submitted the question of order to the Chair, it appeared from the decision to be the Speaker's opinion that the question was, whether a member had a right to withdraw a motion in that situation or not. He knew that right to exist, but he doubted of the competency of the House to refer parts of a petition, and not the whole. In his opinion it ought not to be referred, or, if so, the whole ought to be referred generally. He mentioned a petition which was last session presented from Northampton County, praying the repeal of the alien and sedition laws, but in their general zeal in the pursuance of those ob

jealousy of several gentlemen in the House, he thought it best to alter the motion to their wishes.

It had been suggested that to withdraw the petition for its modification, would be an easy way to acquire the object. He thought it entirely unnecessary to withdraw it in this stage of business. Although he could have wished the words objected to had never been inserted, yet he was not prepared to say that the petitioners had no right to use them. It appeared that these people's sentiments accorded with those of the gentlemen who opposed the reference. They wished to obtain a removal of this great evil when proper: those gentlemen called it an evil which they could wish to get rid of, but they think it cannot be done. Mr. W. said he should not have objected to a resolution importing that it would be improper to legislate on the subject of slavery, but so far as relates to the bad traffic, and the practice of kidnapping, they ought to be examined by a committee. On these accounts he was not authorized, nor was he inclined to withdraw the petition.

He was in hopes the gentleman from South

H. OF R.]

Petition of Free Blacks.

(JANUARY, 1800.

was wanting, he did not believe the House would refuse to appropriate it. Who would withhold a few dollars from his purse to facilitate it? Then, while such are the propositions, a petition in behalf of its accomplishment ought to be heard; if it be not, it must fix a national indignity and stigma which ages of good actions could never wipe away.

Carolina would not have desisted from his mo- | tainly not. Even if a certain sum of money tion for calling the yeas and nays; that gentleman wished the House to show the world that this petition was so irritating and alarming as to merit universal contempt and abhorrence. He believed this gentleman was mistaken as to the small number he supposed would vote for its commitment, and therefore wished he would renew the motion on the question as modified. Mr. GOODE then observed that as a public discussion had taken place upon this subject-one from which he thought Congress precluded by the constitution, and one which materially affected the interest and perhaps the safety of a great portion of the United States, and particularly of his constituents, he thought it his duty not only to give his negative in the usual manner, but to call for the pointed disapprobation of the House, and proposed to amend the resolution by adding the following words:

"And that the parts of the said petition which invite Congress to legislate upon subjects from which the General Government is precluded by the constitution, have a tendency to create disquiet and jealousy, and ought therefore to receive the pointed disapprobation of this House."

Mr. DANA was not of the opinion of a num ber of gentlemen, that the House ought to express its indignation against these petitions. The indignation of that House ought to be limited to certain objects; it might be expressed against an offending nation, but he much doubted whether it became it to express that high sensation against any individuals. He thought no circumstance could occur which called for such condescension, and therefore he could not approve of words so strongly expressed upon an occasion comparatively so trivial. If the gentleman from Virginia would so convey his ideas as to express the impropriety of those.subjects for the consideration of this House, he was willing to agree with him.

Mr. RUTLEDGE thought it a little extraordinary that when gentlemen from some parts of the Union were positively assured that very serious, nay, dreadful effects, must be the inevitable consequence of their discussion on this subject, they still would persist. He used strong words, he said, because no others would be ap propriate. Gentlemen recommended the subject to be calmly argued. Would gentlemen feel calm if measures were taken to destroy most of their property? Would calmness be consistent if entering wedges were prepared to ruin the property of whole estates? If ever it was justifiable to be warm on any subject in the

present, when imminent danger was in view. Yes, we deem this as an entering wedge to an inevitable loss of our property, if persisted in. It appeared by the gentleman's arguments that he had just been reading the opinions of his brother philosopher, Brissot.

Mr. THATCHER said it was the first time that he had ever known any petition or part of a petition receive the "pointed disapprobation of the House" by a resolution, even though the object of it was not within the power of the House. Several petitions had been received upon which the House had no power. He referred to the petition of John Churchman, in December 1791, praying the patronage of Government to facilitate his discovery of the longi- | tude, by enabling him to undertake a voyage to Baffin's Bay. It was reported that great inconvenience operated to prevent the grant prayed for, and no money was allowed, yet no mem-House, it surely was on an occasion like the ber moved a censure upon the petitioner. Was it a desirable object to do away a great evil? It was professed to be the wish of several gentlemen to eradicate it. No gentleman in the House but appeared desirous of embracing it with all his heart. These people only wished the evil destroyed, but did not point out the form. He was willing, for the sake of argument, to admit that slavery did exist and was sanctioned by the laws and constitution of the United States; he did not believe the fact, but as some other gentlemen did, he would admit it for the present. Surely it would be desirable that this great evil should be destroyed, if it could be done without injury, nay, with advantage, to the possessors. Did the petition go any farther than this? It did not. The second person in the Government of the United States had devised a means to procure this object, as also had a certain learned professor. If it was therefore the desire, as avowed, of those gentlemen, and an equitable means had been devised to acquire it, would the reference of a petition which made that request be improper, or would it be impolitic in gentlemen to examine these plans, and if eligible bring about their execution? Cer

Three emissaries from St. Domingo appeared in the hall of the Convention, demanding the emancipation of their species from slavery. The Convention were told it would operate as an entering wedge that would go to the destruction of property, and the loss of one of the finest islands in the world; that it would be murderous in the extreme; that it would open scenes which had never been practised since the destruction of Carthage; that a whole rich country would be buried in blood; that thousands would instantly be reduced to abject penury; that the first towns in that fine island would be reduced to a heap of ashes. But those gentlemen said no, it cannot be, all our desires originate in philanthropy-we wish to do good! But, sir, we have lived to see these dreadful scenes. These horrid effects have succeeded what was conceived once to be trifling. Most important consequences may be the result, al

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though gentlemen little apprehend it. know the situation of things- there, although they do not, and knowing we deprecate it. There have been emissaries amongst us in the Southern States; they have begun their war upon us; an actual organization has commenced; we have had them meeting in their club rooms, and debating on that subject, and determinations have been made. It might be wrong in me to mention these things, because many of those people can read and write, and will be informed of what I am now saying, which they think I did not know, but knowing, I am determined to make use of.

[H. OF R.

But we more probability of discovering an eligible and just mode of acquiring the object of emancipation, than there was in the case referred by the gentleman to Mr Churchman's discovery of longitude. All researches into these attempts were illusory, and both alike impracticable at this time, if ever they would be. However, he was certain that the honorable gentleman's manner of treating the subject would give rise to a just jealousy in those parts of the United States whose property consisted only in slaves. As to the State he represented, as he before said, a very heavy penalty was the fine on each slave imported, and killing, maiming, or illtreating them was punished severely by the whites. He could not think but the arguments of some gentlemen must originate from improper motives.

Sir, I do believe that persons have been sent from France to feel the pulse of this country, to know whether these are the proper engines to make use of these people have been talked to; they have been tampered with, and this is going on. They now will see that the argument has been agitated in the Legislature; that the subject of emancipation has been discussed. Is not this extremely wrong, when gentlemen are told how much it puts our property at hazard. Although these people are unable to do any harm, yet the work will be done by gentlemen in this House, they must be answerable for the mischief. Before I had the honor of a seat in this House, one question which was agitated by the people was, how do the General Legislature regard this species of property? I said, our brethren in the Northern States are willing to leave this business entirely to us who possess it-they will not intermeddle. I did hope that they never would take the lead in any arguments of this dangerous tendency. But, as gentlemen have gone into this business, I find I am compelled to use arguments which otherwise ought not to be mentioned.

I recollect that gentlemen in France used arguments like the gentleman from Massachusetts: We can indemnify these proprietors." But how did they do it, or how can it be done?Not at all. Farther, we were told these things would take place, we need not be alarmed; it was inevitable; that it was reasonable and unavoidable. Sir, it never will take place. There is one alternative which will save us from it, but that alternative I deprecate very much; that is, that we are able to take care of ourselves, and if driven to it, we will take care of ourselves.

Mr. JONES had hoped that the decision of Congress when sitting at New York would have put a final stop to any future applications, and the councils of the United States would have been troubled no farther with them. It was justly and wisely proved that it was a difficulty unfit for Congress to attempt, on account of the extremely different local circumstances and species of property possessed by the Northern and Southern members, who were all met in one convention. However, he must do justice to the candor of some gentlemen from the North, who had vindicated their right to this property. Mr. J. did not think there was any

Mr. EDMOND Could not conceive any danger from committing this petition, whatever alarms some gentlemen had apprehended. But as gentlemen apprehended so much danger from committing certain parts of the petition, he would be willing to quiet these alarms, and do every thing reasonable by expressing an idea that Congress would not legislate upon what belonged not to them. The amendment at first proposed, he professed himself much opposed to, upon the ground that the House were about to express a pointed disapprobation towards the petitioners, which he conceived wrong, because no censure could be due where a petition was respectfully addressed. But as now modified he had no objection to adopt the amendment; not that he conceived it important, but because it tended to quiet the minds of some gentlemen in the House.

Mr. WALN again said, that it was not his intention to advocate the emancipation of slaves, but only to ameliorate their state. He therefore would cheerfully consent to the amendment as amended.

Consent being given by the mover to incorporate the amendment with the original resolution, it was now all before the House in the form of one resolution.

Mr. THATCHER said, as an abstract proposition, he should have no objection; he thought the House ought to give no countenance to any thing that it could not legislate on by the constitution; but as he did not believe the petition contained any such proposition, he must adhere to his former sentiments, and could not consent to the incorporation of the words. As amended, he disliked it much less than before, but he did not like it as connected with the first motion.

Mr. J. BROWN asked whether it was in order for a gentleman to speak five or six times.

Mr. THATCHER said he had spoken but once on this question. The gentleman from Rhode Island need not be afraid, for he was not now going to say much about slavery, which was the nearest to his heart. Mr. T. was fully of the opinion that the House had a right to take up the subject, and give it a full, free, and deli

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