Georgia by negotiation; and if it was found in the end that the United States had no title to it, the Government which had been established could be withdrawn. But it was stated that the Legislature of Georgia would readily consent that the United States should become possessed of this country. But what were the terms upon which they proposed to cede it? They required, as one of the conditions, a million and a half of dollars in six per cent. stock, and as another (which was infinitely harder, since it might not be in our power to comply with it, as it depended upon the will of the Indians) that the United States will guarantee the relinquishment of the Indian claim to the land on the east side of the Chatahoochee, within a certain number of years. There is little hope, therefore, that the State of Georgia will propose any terms to which the United States can agree, as it had been seen that the Legislature of that State had rejected a bill by a great majority, which proposed the price to be one million of dollars with the other condition. Of course it would be very imprudent to rest the establishment of a government in this quarter upon an agreement to terms like these. Besides, the amendment would affect the right claimed by the United States. To wait for this consent would be tantamount to confessing we had no right, and arm Georgia with a strong weapon against us in the final settlement. Mr. H. contended that there was nothing in the constitution which could prevent the proposed measure, since it was absolutely necessary to preserve the people from falling into anarchy, and to prevent a foreign Government from puting arms into their hands. It was also a quarter | of the Union which it was necessary to preserve, if we wished to secure the free navigation of the Mississippi, which we had lately obtained by the Spanish treaty; for if this country were invaded by the Indians, or involved in civil war, we could not have the benefit of the navigation of that river. He hoped, therefore, when so many considerations were opposed to it, the amendment would be disagreed to. Mr. NICHOLAS understood from the gentleman from South Carolina, that it was not intended to insist upon the title of the United States to the territory in question; and if they were not ripe to decide that the land is the property of the United States, he thought they ought not to establish a Government there without paying some respect to the rights of Georgia, by obtaining her consent, as it might prevent that amicable settlement of which we had at present the prospect. If that State set the value upon the land which had been mentioned, would it not excite the utmost jealousy in that country to take forcible possession of it? To do this would certainly be to establish an influence in favor of the United States, which would be fatal to the claim of Georgia. No argument had been adduced to show the right of the United States to this territory, but merely to show the conveni [H. OF R ence of the measure. The gentleman from South Carolina might as well say that a certain district in Virginia is not so well governed as it might be, and, as the people would be happier under the Government of the United States, propose to take possession of it. But it was said Georgia had not begun to govern this territory. Neither have the United States. She may, for aught we know, be preparing to do it now. He thought there was not a shadow of pretence for taking the course proposed, without first consulting the Legislature of Georgia. He hoped the amendment would be agreed to. Mr. J. WILLIAMS said it appeared to him, that if this amendment were to prevail, the bill might as well be voted out altogether. The bill had two objects, viz: a settlement of limits, and the fixing of a temporary government. It was clear to him, from the papers before the committee, that the United States had a clear title to the country in question, and, if this was not the case, there was a saving clause in favor of the Georgia claim. He thought that State ought to be happy at the idea of the United States fixing a government there, as it would assist them in their defence against the Indians. If gentlemen turned to the acts of Congress, it would be found what a vast expense the United States had heretofore been put to in defending the frontier of that country. He thought that State had been dealt with in a very favorable manner. It was not long since $100,000 were paid to their militia for defending their frontier. He complimented the gentleman from Georgia for having advocated so ably the cause of his State. But he thought that State ought to come forward and show what title she had to the country. It had been ceded to the United States by the Spanish Treaty, and the inhabitants there had a claim upon the General Government for protection, and surely if the State of Georgia for ever refused to give its consent to a government being established there, they were not for ever to be without government. The people there had petitioned Congress for a government, of which doubtless the State of Georgia was acquainted; and they ought to come forward in the business. Their silence proved to him that they had no title to that country. Mr. W. referred to the manner in which other cessions had been made to the Union, and said he thought Georgia ought to rejoice at the proposed establishment, as it would not only be benefiting that State, but the Union at large. Mr. MACON said if the bill was intended to be conformable to the title, the amendment ought certainly to be agreed to; as, if the United States undertook to establish a government at the Natchez, without the consent of Georgia, it could not be said to be amicably done. This, he said, was neither the proper time nor place of deciding to whom this territory belongs. The great object ought to be to get a government there, and not to talk about what had been done for Georgia. And if the consent of Georgia could be obtained previous to the establishment of this government, it was certainly desirable that it should be obtained. This would not injure the claim of either. When this was done, some mode might be agreed upon by which the dispute at present subsisting, might be settled. This course would prevent any difficulties, and the consent might be obtained by the time the government could take effect. Mr. OTIS said if the object of the present bill, could be obtained in a mode which would preserve the rights of all parties as they at present stand, such a course would be preferable to that which should appear to relinquish the right of one of the parties. It struck him that this might be effected by the bill as it now stands. The United States assumed their right to the land, yet they do not say they mean to turn a deaf ear to the claim of Georgia. But, if the amendment were adopted, it would go to relinquish the title of the United States, and this, he thought, would be an excess of complaisance to the State of Georgia. The only plausible reason given in favor of the amendment was, that if the bill passed without it, it would give offence to, and excite jealousy in, the State of Georgia. But how? Because Congress passes an act to settle the interfering claims, and directs the appointment of commissioners to give them a compensation for what we might take without it? Or, because we say we will enter upon the territory, to which we always laid claims, in order to preserve peace and order among the inhabitants, and to secure it against the attack of the Indians or of a foreign power? Gentlemen seem to take it for granted that Georgia has possession of this territory; whereas those who oppose the amendment, contend it is a vacant possession, and that we have a right to take possession of it, to hold it, not until an army is raised to take it from us, but until the legal question of right shall be decided. And it could not be said that there was any thing offensive in this. If a man, for instance, were to enter upon a piece of land, and say he would never give it up until he was driven from it, it would certainly be an act of violence; but if he enter upon it only to take care of it, until a legal decision can be had as to his right, such an act was perfectly justifiable; and this was intended in the present case. Mr. KITTERA hoped, if the bill passed at all, it would be without the amendment. This territory was never yet governed either by the United States or Georgia, but had been ceded to the United States by Spain, in our late treaty with that power, and we ought to retain possession of it until the title to it was clear. In this view of the subject, he could not see how the State of Georgia could take offence at our holding the territory until the existing dispute was settled. Mr. BALDWIN said it was to be regretted, as this was the last instance in which this question of cession could be presented to Congress, that [MARCH, 1798 the situation of the persons settled upon this territory was such as should seem to constrain gentlemen to depart from the course of their. former proceedings on this subject. He was fully impressed with the situation of that people; but he thought little delay would be occasioned by the proposed application to the State of Georgia; nor would that consent weaken, as had been suggested, the title of the United States. Or, if there was any force in the objection, it might be guarded against by adding a few words in the section which speaks of preserving the claim of Georgia as it now stands. Mr. B. said, gentlemen who had turned their attention to the map, would find that the territory in question is situate at the south-west corner of the United States; the southern boundary is latitude 31, and the western boundary the Mississippi, which is also the boundary of the United States. Its extent is about 280 miles north and south, and coming this way, about 400 miles. That part upon which this bill is bottomed, is little more than one-third part of the whole of that territory. The United States now reckon latitude 32 as the boundary of Georgia; but in the treaty, and till very lately, it was always reckoned to be 31, which is also the boundary of the United States. This was, at any rate, a new discovery-the official documents in support of which he had not seen. It was now supposed that West Florida extends to latitude 321, and not to 31, which is one degree and a half more than formerly supposed. If this were so, he wondered it had never before been discovered by England or Spain. Why was the boundary of the United States always fixed at 31? He feared, that since it became our interest to extend the boundary, we had suffered that interest to color our judgment. The instructions drawn out for our Minister by a former Secretary of State were, "you are to contend for latitude 31." The ground upon which he had stated this, Mr. B. thought irresistible, and it was thought we might risk a war upon it. Besides, this bill would not cure the evil for which it was intended. There might be inhabitants still further north; this bill provides only for such as are settled within what had been called the Province of West Florida. Mr. B. said, he had never seen the documents which authorized this extension. He had, indeed, seen the remarks of Mr. Chalmers, who, he believed, was Secretary to the Board of Trade and Plantations in London; but he believed he had drawn what he had said from the same document which was now reported, viz: the extract from the copy of the instructions said to have been given to Governor Chester; but the order of King and Council for extending it, the Attorney General says, in page 11th of his report, is not to be found. Gentlemen had said, why does not the State of Georgia manifest a disposition to make some arrangements respecting the territory in question. They had done so. After the Revolu tionary war in 1783 or 1784, when there was an expectation that the forts would have been evacuated, they laid out a county there, and all the titles were declared good, and where there was no other title occupancy was declared to be sufficient, and warrants were to be issued accordingly. When he first came to attend his duty in Congress, the Minister from Spain arrived about the same time, when he put in the claim of Spain to this territory, which prevented any thing further from being done; and as soon as it was found that the arrangements made by Georgia gave umbrage to the Spanish Government, they were given up. In the year 1788, the State of Georgia passed an act for making the cession of this territory to the United States. This act Congress referred to a committee, which reported that Government ought not to accept of the cession on the terms proposed. He believed the same disposition to make the cession which always had existed, now existed. He believed the disposition of the government of Georgia was as favorable to the interests of the United States as that of any other State. He did not rise to speak their praises; but he could not sit to hear them blamed without notice. [H. OF R. returning these people for answer, "we cannot attend to your wants until we have settled our dispute with Georgia." Georgia might refuse to negotiate the subject, and by that means protract the business in a manner which would be very inconvenient, and perhaps drive the people under another government. Besides, if Georgia should refuse its consent to the establishment of a government in that quarter, it would, nevertheless, be proper to establish one. The United States, Mr. G. said, came into possession of this territory by treaty. But suppose it was now in possession of a foreign power, would Georgia attempt to drive them from it? Certainly not. It would amount to the making of war on a foreign power. Suppose Georgia had a title to this territory, had not the United States the power of depriving Georgia of it? Suppose, in their treaty with Spain, the United States had surrendered to Spain one-half of this land, or the whole of it, Georgia would have been bound by such an act; and having got this territory by treaty, they had certainly a right to establish a provisional government over it, until the dispute, as to the title, was settled. The question of this amendment was put and negatived by 46 to 24. Mr. THATCHER rose and said, he should make a motion, touching the rights of man, by moving to strike out the excepting clause in the 3d section of the bill. [It appears that in the ordinance establishing a government in the Northwestern Territory, slavery is expressly forbidden, and this section of the bill directs that a government similar in all respects to that established in the North-western Territory shall be established in the Mississippi Territory, except that slavery shall not be forbidden.] Mr. HARPER did not believe his friend's motion would be a proper mode of supporting the rights of man. In the North-western Territory If the proposed' government was proceeded with without the consent of Georgia, it would be a dereliction of principle. He thought some sort of regulation might be made among the people for their own government, until Georgia was applied to. This was not a new case. There had been great settlements in several parts of the country long before any government was provided for them. Mr. B. said, he did not mean to undervalue the claim of the United States; they had always a claim in every case of cession, but he hoped, except there was an absolute necessity for it, the usual course of proceeding would not be departed from. Mr. GORDON said, the gentleman from Geor-the regulation forbidding slavery was a very gia complained that a different course was proposed now to be taken than had been adopted heretofore. In answer to this, it was sufficient to say, that where the circumstances of cases differed, different courses were necessary. With respect to the merits of the bill, he thought it stood right at present. The situation of the people in the district alluded to, was such as required immediate attention. If gentlemen were not convinced of this, he saw no necessity for going into the business before the subsisting dispute between Georgia and the United States was settled. He believed, however, there was no doubt of the fact; and surely the gentleman from Georgia would not wish that these people should live under a military government for any length of time. Being satisfied of this point, he wished the bill to pass without the amendment, as that might defeat altogether the purpose of the bill. The claim of Georgia he looked upon at least as doubtful; and as he considered the United States as bound to protect all its citizens, he thought they would not be justified in proper one, as the people inhabiting that part of the country were from parts where slavery did not prevail, and they had of course no slaves amongst them; but in the Mississippi Territory it would be very improper to make such a regulation, as that species of property already exists, and persons emigrating there from the Southern States would carry with them property of this kind. To agree to such a proposition would, therefore, be a decree of banishment to all the persons settled there, and of exclusion to all those intending to go there. He believed it could not, therefore, be carried into effect, as it struck at the habits and customs of the people. Mr. VARNUM did not know that the gentleman from South Carolina wished to promote the rights of man. His observations showed, at least, that he did not wish to support the rights of all men; for where there was a disposition to retain a part of our species in slavery, there could not be a proper respect for the rights of mankind. It was true that this kind H. OF R.] Georgia Limits. [MARCH, 1798. They lead to more mischief than gentlemen are aware of; and he trusted if the gentleman from Massachusetts could be convinced that the discussion of such questions as the present did much mischief in certain parts of the Union, he would not bring them forward. He hoped he would withdraw the present motion. Mr. GORDON thought that when the gentleman from Massachusetts recollected that, by the establishment of this government, the United States do not establish their exclusive right to this territory, he would consent to withdraw his amendment, as that went to say that we had the absolute right of jurisdiction, and were determined to exercise it; and in making a difference between the ground on which property was held there from that on which it was held in Georgia, they would militate against the 5th section of the bill. of property is held in the Southern States, be- | opinions. Mr. RUTLEDGE wished the gentleman from Massachusetts would withdraw his motion, not from any apprehension he had that it would obtain; but he hoped that he would not indulge himself and others in uttering philippics against a practice with which his and their philosophy is at war. He submitted to the gentleman's candor whether it was proper, on every occasion, to do this-to bring forward the Southern States in an odious light, or to give his neighbor and colleague an opportunity of bringing them forward, and comparing them with Algerines! He thought propriety and decency towards other members required that such language should be checked. He believed, if his friend from Massachusetts had recollected that the most angry debate which had taken place during this session was occasioned by a motion on this subject, he would not have brought forward the present question. One gentleman says, you call these men property; another, you hold these men in chains; a third, you vioLate the rights of man! And are not these men property? Do not the people in this territory hold them as such? Did they not hold them under the Spanish Government? And must we thus address these people: "We have made a treaty which puts you under the mild government of the United States, but we must take from you your property; or rather, we must set your blacks at liberty to cut your throats. The rights of man was the watch-word of the day, and Congress have determined that you shall not possess this property. They cannot as yet do slavery away altogether-the day is not yet arrived; but they have determined it shall not exist in the Mississippi Territory." These, said Mr. R., are not mere speculative Mr. OTIS hoped his colleague would not withdraw his motion; and the reason why he wished this was, that an opportunity might be given to gentlemen who came from the same part of the Union with him to manifest that it is not their disposition to interfere with the Southern States as to the species of property in question. With respect to the existence of slavery, the House had often heard gentlemen, who are owners of slaves, declare that it is not their fortune, but their misfortune that they possess them, but who still keep them, and claim the right of managing them as they think proper. He thought it was not the business of those who had nothing to do with that kind of property to interfere with that right; and he really wished that the gentlemen who held slaves might not be deprived of the means of keeping them in order. If the amendment prevailed, it would declare that no slavery should exist in the Natchez country. This would not only be a sentence of banishment, but of war. An immediate insurrection would probably take place, and the inhabitants would not be suffered to retire in peace, but be massacred on the spot. By permitting slavery in this district of country, the number of slaves would not be increased-as if emigrants from South Carolina or Georgia were to remove into this country they would take their slaves with them; and he could see nothing in this which could affect the philanthropy of his friend. The North-western Territory is inhabited by a description of persons who have not been accustomed to hold slaves, and therefore the restriction is agreeable to them; but the territory in question will be settled by people from the Southern States, who cannot cultivate the ground without slaves. He hoped, however, the motion would be persisted in, and negatived by a large majority. Mr. D. FOSTER hoped, if the motion was not withdrawn, that a long debate might not be had upon it. Mr. THATCHER said he should not withdraw his motion, and the more it was opposed, believ MARCH, 1798.] Georgia Limits. [H. OF R. ing his cause to be good, the more obstinate he | a certain degree, and when the Territory shall should be in its support. become a State, the interest of the holders will be such as to procure a constitution which shall admit of slavery, and it will be thereby made permanent. Having determined slavery was bad policy for the North-western Territory, he saw no reason for a contrary determination with respect to this Territory. Mr. GILES wished to suggest a single idea. The present motion was brought forward from the avowed motive of furthering the rights of man. He did not know whether the tendency of it was calculated to ameliorate the condition of the class of men alluded to; he believed not. On the contrary, it was his opinion, that if the slaves of the Southern States were permitted to go into this Western country, by lessening the number in those States, and spreading them over a large surface of country, there would be a greater probability of ameliorating their con-litic and unjust to declare by ordinance that the dition, which could never be done whilst they were crowded together as they now are in the Southern States. There was, then, only one solitary objection to the amendment, and that might easily be ob viated. It was with respect to the situation of the people already settled there who are possessed of slaves. It would be extremely impo people settled there, either under the British, Spanish, or Georgia governments, should be deprived of this kind of property; and if this was Mr. HARTLEY said, he had himself intended the effect of the amendment, he would vote to have brought forward an amendment similar against it. Such a regulation would be attended to the present, but, on inquiry, he found so many with the worst of consequences; but other words difficulties in the way, that he was obliged to may be easily introduced to guarantee the proabandon it. He found it would interfere with,perty of the persons already settled there. and be a serious attack upon, the property of that country. He was sorry it was not in the power of Congress to gratify the wishes of philanthropists in this respect, by doing away slavery altogether; but this could not be done at present, and as he believed the present amendment, if carried, would be attended with bad effects, he should vote against it. By the laws of the different States, Mr. G. said, the importation of slaves is forbidden; but if this amendment does not obtain, he knew not how slaves could be prevented from being introduced by the way of New Orleans, by persons who are not citizens of the United States. He hoped, therefore, the amendment would be agreed to. Mr. GALLATIN said, if he saw any of the great Mr. NICHOLAS believed it not only to be the inconveniences which were foretold as likely to interest of the Southern States, but of the United arise from this amendment, he should certainly States, that this motion should be rejected. vote against it. He should be extremely averse They were to legislate for the whole of the to the adoption of any principle which should Union, and ought to consult the happiness of either directly or indirectly lead to the produc- the whole. It was not for them to attempt to tion of any commotion or insurgency in any make a particular spot of country more happy State where there is a great number of slaves. than all the rest. If it was a misfortune to the He did not see how any such effect could be Southern States to be overwhelmed with this produced by the present motion; for, notwith- kind of property, he asked if it would not be standing what had fallen from the gentleman doing service not only to them but to the whole from South Carolina, it did not appear to him Union, to open this Western country, and by how a regulation with respect to another Terri- that means spread the blacks over a large space, tory can affect the peace, tranquillity, or pro- so that in time it might be safe to carry into perty of any other State. How the forbidding effect the plan which certain philanthropists of slavery in the Mississippi Territory could have so much at heart, and to which he had no produce a worse effect than the same regulation objection, if it could be effected, viz: the emanin the North-western Territory, or in Pennsyl- cipation of this class of men? And when this vania, or in several other States. The amend-country shall have become sufficiently populous ment, therefore, could not be opposed on that to become a State, and the Legislature wishes to ground; it must be on some other. Ought it discountenance slavery, the increase of slaves to be rejected on the ground of jurisdiction? may be prevented, and such means taken to get Certainly not. The United States intend to ex- rid of slavery altogether, perhaps in conjunction ercise jurisdiction over that Territory, and was with other parts of the United States, who by there any more reason for excepting this juris- that time may be in such a situation as to addiction than any other? If we establish this mit of it, as shall appear prudent and proper. Government we expect it to be permanent; and Mr. THATCHER was of an opinion directly opif we believe it is not conducive to the happi-posite to the gentleman who had just sat down. ness of any people, but the contrary, to legalize Indeed, they seldom did agree in sentiment; toslavery, when we are about to form a constitu- day they differed very widely. He believed the tion for a Territory, its establishment ought to be prevented. But, if this amendment is rejected, we establish slavery for the country, not only during its temporary government, but for all the time it is a State; for, by the constant admission of slaves, the number will increase to true interest and happiness of the United States would be promoted by agreeing to this amendment; because its tendency was to prevent the increase of an evil which was acknowledged by the very gentlemen themselves who are owners of slaves. Indeed the gentleman from Virginia |