JANUARY, 1798.] Foreign Intercourse. [H. OF R. Mr. HARPER said he proposed to fill the first | was a division between it and a considerable with $40,000, and the last with $28,650. portion of the people. The evidence of this fact had been long shown, and he feared the operation of circumstances of this nature on the public mind. Mr. NICHOLAS Conceived this to be a good time for the House to attempt to bring back the establishment of the diplomatic corps to the footing on which it was settled at the commencement of the Government, and continued down till the year 1796; and to prevent in future the probable increase which he apprehended from the recent examples, he thought it necessary to take a view of this subject, not only from the increase of expense, but from a variety of other considerations. It is not the manner in which a Government is constituted which makes its operations easy and certain. But the execution of the powers of the Government itself is no more to be considered than the nature of its formation; for I do believe there is a tendency in all Governments like ours to produce a union and consolidation of all its parts into the Executive department; and that the limitation and connection of the parts with each other, as settled in the constitution, would be destroyed by the influence I have mentioned, unless there is a constant operation on the part of the Legislature to resist this overwhelming power. I think we have the most convincing proofs that a representative Government can be made most oppressive and burdensome, and yet preserve all the forms which are given to it by a constitution; and the Legislature shall appear to act upon its own discretion, whilst that discretion shall have ceased to exist. Where the Executive has an influence over the Legislature, and the Government is a representative one, the Executive is capable of carrying its views into effect in a manner superior to what can be accomplished even in the most despotic monarchy; the mischief will be carried further in the former case than in the latter, because the people will be more inclined to submit to the decisions of a Government of its own choosing than to one which rules them by hereditary right; monarchs cannot carry their oppressions so far, without resistance, as republics. Under this general view of the subject, he conceived it to be the duty of the Legislature to guard cautiously its own independence, and to limit, as far as consistent with the general welfare, the influence of Executive patronage. He conceived that this extension of influence of one branch of the Government over another was strictly guarded by the constitution, which was framed on the principle of checks and balances of departments acting and controlling each other; but he was sorry to see the idea of patronage drawn into a closer compass than it had formerly been, as it increased the evil. He was sorry for it, because it tended to manifest a circumstance which had been sought to be concealed. Every insinuation that there was a division between the Government and the people had been repelled as an insidious and malignant design; but the Administration, by acting on a new principle, which he was too well assured was the fact, had established the idea that there He gave it as his opinion on our foreign intercourse, that the United States would be benefited by having no Ministers at all. He did not think that we could be benefited by any sort of compact these foreign agents could form for us, for we only bound ourselves by any treaty we entered into, as we are totally incapable of enforcing the execution of the stipulations made by other nations by any offensive measures. It might be thought necessary to make commercial arrangements with some European powers; but, he asked, if they had the force to make a foreign country conform to its engagements? No gentleman would say that they had; therefore such regulations only tended to entangle ourselves, without rendering commerce any efficient aid. He would, therefore, leave our commerce to seek its own markets totally disembarrassed. All the protection we could furnish it with, consisted in officers of another grade than those mentioned in this bill: Consuls who should reside in the sea-ports, and not Ministers Plenipotentiary residing in the interior. He did not intend by the motion he was about to make, that the whole diplomatic establishment should be destroyed at this time, but merely to reduce it to what it had been before the late increase. With this view he proposed to alter the bill so as to direct that there should be appropriated $9,000 for a Minister Plenipotentiary at London, and $9,000 more for another near the French Republic, and that the PRESIDENT be left at liberty to reduce the Ministers Plenipotentiary at Berlin, Madrid, and Lisbon, to Ministers resident, which would diminish their salaries one half-a resident Minister being of a lower grade has only $4,500 per annum. He then went into a detail of the proceedings of the first Congress, in order to show that it was admitted on all sides by that body, that the constitution vested the power of specifying and limiting the salaries of foreign Ministers and Consuls; he read the speeches of Mr. LAWRENCE, Mr. SHERMAN, Mr. W. SMITH, of South Carolina, Mr. SEDGWICK, Mr. HUNTINGTON, and several others, from the Congressional Register, by which it appeared, that there was but one opinion on their powers under the Constitution; and showed from hence, that the only reason why the House did not undertake to enumerate and fix the salaries of foreign Ministers in detail, arose merely from the want of information as to the places where they should be fixed, and the sum necessary to cover their expenses. As his construction corresponded with that of the gentleman who fixed the principles upon which the Government was put in motion, he was encouraged to expect his motion would succeed, seeing that the House had now had sufficient experience to enable H. OF R.j Foreign Intercourse. (JANUARY, 1798. them to say what were the regulations proper | foreign intercourse; but it was the discovery to be made. of a few men who believed that every thing which had been done by this Government had been radically wrong. He trusted, however, the House would adhere to what it had so frequently sanctioned, and that the proposed amendment would not be agreed to. Mr. GALLATIN believed that there were a number of people in the United States-people otherwise enlightened, and who, upon all common subjects, possessed sound understandings Mr. HARPER supposed it would be remembered by all those gentlemen who had attended to the business of Congress for several years past, that the doctrine of the gentleman from Virginia was by no means new. The subject of foreign intercourse was never taken up, without that gentleman, or some other who agreed with him in sentiment, advancing these opinions; they never failed to speak of the danger to be apprehended from Executive influence, from its who were fully convinced that there was a power to appoint foreign Ministers; that foreign faction existing within the United States, and intercourse was unnecessary; that our public af- even within the walls of that House, who fairs abroad were not to be attended to, and wished to demolish the Government; and he that commerce ought to be given up, or left to further believed that this opinion was supshift for itself. Nor was this a doctrine confined ported by such declarations as had been made to this country, or this age. Whenever a set of by the gentleman from Connecticut. He should gentlemen in any country found their views be sorry that such a belief should be considopposed by the measures of Government, they ered as dangerous to the safety of the commubecame vexed, and attributed the proceedings nity. Nor could he consider the determination of those who differed from them in opinion to of the Executive to employ only such persons any motive rather than the public good. The as are of the same political opinions with themdesire of Executive favor, or Executive offices, selves, as of such a nature as to produce fatal was an usual charge, and it was at this day well consequences, and that Government, on that understood. It would also be remembered, account, was unworthy of confidence. He bethat whenever the subject of foreign intercourse lieved that such a line of conduct must flow had been discussed, though these objections had from the present state of parties in America, been constantly made to it, they had been as divided as the people were upon many imporconstantly disregarded by the Congress of the tant occasions. To say, therefore, that the ExUnited States. The good sense of the country ecutive employed persons of consonant political had weighed these objections in the balance, opinions to its own, was not to say the Governand declared them wanting; and he trusted the ment did not deserve confidence. But if the same fate would now meet them as heretofore. committee turned their attention to the amendIn aid of the $40,000 per annum, originally ment proposed, it only went to declare that granted for this purpose, Mr. H. said, various ministers to London and Paris should not have supplementary appropriations had been made. a salary of more than $9,000 a year; and that First, a sum of $20,000, then a sum of $23,000, ministers to other parts of Europe should not and, in March last, $17,000, and, in addition to have more than $4,500. In support of this this, $14,000 for a particular appointment. The amendment, it was said that this was the House had, therefore, not only deemed it expe- ground upon which this Government first fixed dient to continue the original act, but to make the business of foreign intercourse. He beadditional appropriations from year to year. lieved this statement correct. Until the year He thought the good sense of the country had 1796, there was no minister plenipotentiary never been more firmly shown than on this except at Paris and London; at other places subject. But now a new course was to be ta- there were no higher grades than ministers ken, and all former proceedings declared to have resident. Hence the committee might be led been wrong. But it was said this country had to argue the propriety of bringing back our no need of foreign ministers, and that com- foreign political intercourse to what it was bemerce might be left to itself. He did not be- fore that period. He said foreign political inlieve the House would think so. Did not the tercourse; because he thought the gentleman United States trade with all the nations of the from South Carolina (Mr. HARPER) had blended earth? How, then, was it possible to do with two subjects together, viz: foreign commercial out accredited agents to attend to our concerns intercourse, and foreign political intercourse. in foreign countries? Were we to give up our He did not believe it was the opinion of any commerce? There were gentlemen, he knew, gentleman in that House that commerce ought who would answer, Yes. They would tell the to be left to shift for itself, unattended to. He House, commerce was a bad thing, and that it believed it was well understood that our comrather ought to be outlawed than protected. merce in foreign countries was attended to by But was this the sense of the country? Was it our consuls and not by our ministers plenipothe sense of that House? Would they discard tentiary; and consuls would exist if we had no the property of that class of citizens who de- ministers at all. Therefore, all that gentlepended upon it for their support and their man's arguments, which tended to show that wealth? Or would they be ready to forfeit the amendment would affect our commercial the revenue arising from it? Mr. H. said he intercourse, had no foundation whatever. had often heard of the dangerous nature of Returning to the question of foreign political JANUARY, 1798.] Foreign Intercourse. [H. OF R. intercourse: Was it proper to bring it back to | stood, was the same as to say that the ground what it was eighteen months ago? And, be- upon which they complained was also well unfore he proceeded further, he would observe derstood: it was to acknowledge, that persons that, though the gentleman from South Carolina who were in the favor of the Executive had had been tolerably correct in his statements of some advantages which persons in the other the business, he was mistaken in one point, in party desired or envied. To admit of one posiwhich he would set him right. He had stated tion, was to admit of the other. But, if no parthat the first additional appropriation was $20,- ticular advantage was to be derived from Gov000; but this sum was not appropriated for for- ernmental patronage, then the cause of jealousy, eign intercourse, but for defraying the expense according to this doctrine, must cease. of the suits of our merchants in London. On Our Government, he said, was in its childthe first of January, 1796, there remained a ba-hood; and if this patronage had any existence, lance of unexpended appropriation for this it could not of course be as yet alarming. But object, of $30,000. To that day no extraordi- he desired gentlemen to look at all Governments nary appropriation had been made; the whole where this power was placed in the Executive, allowance was $40,000 a year, which was found and see if the greatest evil of the Government to be more than sufficient. On the 28th of May, was not the excessive influence of that depart1796, an estimate was sent by the PRESIDENT OF ment. Did not this corruption exist in the THE UNITED STATES, stating the sums already ap- Government which was constituted most simipropriated for foreign intercourse, and that $23,-larly to ours, to such a degree as to have become 500 were yet wanting, in order to change the establishment which had till that day existed, by sending Ministers Plenipotentiary to Madrid and Lisbon, instead of Ministers Resident. This estimate, he just stated, was received on the 28th of May, and the law received the signature of the PRESIDENT on the first of June, so that it could not have received a very full discus-power had been placed in the Legislature, he besion (being passed just as the session was about to close) and he thought there was good reason for examining the thing again. The next appropriation was made in the second session of the fourth Congress. In that session, he allowed, the additional appropriation was passed after full discussion. It was made upon an estimate stating $17,900 wanted; and, during last session, an appropriation was made for a Minister to Berlin, of $13,500. a part of the system itself, and without which, it is said, the Government could not go on? Was it not, therefore, prudent to keep a watchful eye in this respect? He did not, however, speak against the power itself; it was necessary to be placed somewhere. The constitution had placed it in the Executive power. If the same lieved they would have been more corrupt than the Executive. He thought, therefore, the trust was wisely placed in the Executive; and though it was right to keep grants of money within proper bounds, in order to prevent the abuse of power, yet it was proper to grant all that was necessary. Mr. G. concluded, by saying, that if he thought it was proper that our political intercourse should be extended, he should not support the The committee had been told that it would amendment; but as the conviction was strong evince great versatility if they were all at once upon his mind that our foreign political interto change what had already been done. But it course had at least been as expensive as it ought must be recollected, than when the change in to be; that it was owing, in a great degree, to the system was first made, it underwent little our political intercourse with foreign nations, discussion; and he would venture to say, that that our present critical situation was produced; our business abroad was as well done from the that this intercourse produced more evil than year 1786 to 1796, as it had been done since. good to us; that he wished to bring the busiAs the question was whether a larger or a ness back to the state in which it stood in 1796. smaller sum of money should be appropriated, If the wisdom of future Legislatures shall think he would call upon gentlemen' in favor of the proper to abolish the establishment of foreign larger sum, to show what benefit was derived political intercourse altogether, it must be left from Madrid and Lisbon by the change; what to them to decide. He himself thought it would necessity there was for a Minister at Berlin, and be going too far to do so at present. He bewhat good was to be derived from giving a lar-lieved, situated as we were, it was necessary to ger salary than $4,500. The gentleman from have some political intercourse; but he believed Connecticut had said, why send a Minister Pleni- it would be best, by degrees, to decline it altopotentiary to London or Paris, any more than gether. the other Courts? This was done at first, and the mover, he supposed, wished not to innovate upon the law as originally passed. Mr. SITGREAVES.-The constitution and laws of the country had made certain offices necessary, and left it to the Executive to fill them as But they were told it was improper, upon this he pleased; and was it for that House to floor, to say any thing about patronage, and that attempt to control this discretion? If it were all arguments of that kind are well understood, executed to the injury of the people, the constiand are by no means novel in their nature; that tution had pointed out the remedy to be by imsuch complaints are made under all forms of peachment. But where was the crime, the Government by discontented people out of office. offence, or the impropriety, of the conduct asTo say that these complaints are well under-scribed to the Executive, if it had been adopted? H. OF R.] Foreign Intercourse. [JANUARY, 1798. Would gentlemen say that the Executive ought to this end, that the compensations to be made to appoint persons to office who professed an to the persons who may be employed, should, opinion contrary to its own? Did gentlemen according to the nature of their appointments, suppose that there was such a want of integrity be defined by law." This part of the Speech in this department of Government, that it was referred to a committee, and from that oriadopted a political opinion which it did not be-ginated this law. Want of information, at that lieve to be right? And, if it were believed to early time in the Government, prevented their act from principle, would it be prudent or right being as particular as they wished. They fixed to admit to a participation in the execution of a sum to each grade, and a sum beyond which the important duties of Government persons the whole amount should not extend; limited whose sentiments were not in unison with those the law to a short period, that it might be open of the Executive, and who could only create to be corrected by experience. The present modiscord and confusion, where nothing but har- tion, if he had understood it, proposed now to mony and union ought to prevail? If the Exe- be a little more particular in the establishment, cutive acted upon just principles, it would en- by fixing the sum for particular places to do deavor to give singleness of design to its the very thing then recommended by the PREoperations, and it could only do this by admit- SIDENT. The same has always been the intention ting persons into the Government who thought of every succeeding Congress, which was the with it. This would be a right, prudent, and reason why they continued it only for short honorable conduct; and where it had been de- periods, leaving it open to such amendments as viated from (as he had before observed), Gov- should be suggested by experience. These ideas ernment had received an awful lesson for its of the offices being first to be established by law, future conduct. appeared not only to be the sense of the former PRESIDENT, and of each succeeding Congress, as he had stated, but appeared also to be the opinion of the present PRESIDENT. At the last session he thought that a higher grade of office was necessary at Algiers: this he stated in a message to Congress-that as there were great expenditures of money on that coast, he thought it necessary that an establishment should be made which would enable him to appoint a very confidential person, on whom the other officers there should be dependent, and who should control their proceedings and expenditures. Congress concurred in this opinion, passed a law for the establishment of the office, and then the Executive appointed the officer. For these reasons he considered the question within their proper powers, and fairly open to their deliberation. The question whether that House had the power to interfere with the Executive authority, by withholding appropriations, had been fully discussed in a former Congress, and the opinion of the country was not now to be fixed on this subject. For that part of the House who thought the constitution had not vested them with the authority of controlling the Executive, it was sufficient to say that the Executive had thought it necessary to introduce the change in the diplomatic department, which was complained of, and that they felt themselves bound to carry his determination into effect; but those who think that the House of Representatives may control the Executive in this respect, will of course act accordingly. At the close of the revolutionary war, the disposition of forming many treaties, and having extensive diplomatic connections with European powers, was carried even further than it has been since. It was among their first national acts, and discovered marks of youth and inexperience; a few years convinced them that they had gone too far, that this country had little to expect from treaties, and much to lose, and that many diplomatic connections were more frequently the cause of perplexity and embarrassment, than of any national advantage. The Congress under the articles of confederation were extricating themselves from that policy as fast as possible; as these expired in course, they were careful not to renew them. For several of the last years of that Congress he well recollected that clusters of candidates for these ap Mr. BALDWIN said he perceived there was a real difference of opinion between the gentleman last up and himself. The gentleman supposed the diplomatic establishment was fixed by the Executive, and the Legislature had nothing to do with it but to provide the money. Every person must see, even from a cursory view of the constitution, that this was designed to be a Government of departments, Legislative, Executive, and Judicial, to be kept distinct as far as possible. It was the business of the Legislature to establish offices by law; it was the business of the Executive to fill those offices. It would appear, from tracing back the law, now proposed to be continued, that it originated in this manner. He had not been notified of the subject as being likely to be called up to-day, and was not prepared to be as particular as he could wish as to facts. He had endeavored to refresh his recollection since it had been under discus-pointments, supported by powerful interests and sion, and he found that it originated from the Speech of the PRESIDENT, at the opening of the second session of the first Congress, in which he said, "that the interests of the United States required that our intercourse with other nations should be facilitated by such provisions as will enable me to fulfil my duty in that respect; and connections, were uniformly resisted; and, if he mistook not, when this Government came into operation, this country had but one Minister in Europe. The conviction on this subject was so strong, and experience had so fully settled it as the true policy, that it remained immoveable for some time after organizing the present Gov JANUARY, 1798.] Foreign Intercourse. [H. OF R. ernment. All appropriations for foreign Minis- | impressions which may be attempted to be ters were refused at the first session, as far as he given with respect to this country; and thereby recollected. At the second session it was urged, put our business in the best train for securing in the Speech of the PRESIDENT, as before stated, the neutral standing which we have taken. and enforced by more particular explanations to He was against it for another reason. Το individuals, as designed to be for temporary pur- change the diplomatic intercourse in the way poses, respecting the Northern forts and the pro- proposed, would be forcing upon the Executive perty that was withheld. Under these explana- a measure contrary to its wishes. It would tions a law passed, as before explained. It was also be affording testimony to the charge heretrue, this policy had been of late, in some tofore made, that there was a division in the measure, departed from. He thought experience Government and the people-a sitnation in had already been useful to them in this course which many wished to see us. He should be also, and ought to administer caution to them sorry to afford the appearance of one departin seeking to intermingle in European politics. ment of Government having forced upon anoAmbassadors and Ministers cannot be entirely ther a change of measures of which they are the indifferent to the characters and events with competent judges, and upon which they have which they are constantly surrounded; the acted. As it was well known that there was share they take is very apt to be exchanged be- a very intimate connection between Spain and tween the countries to which they belong. He Holland, and the country with whom we have did not wish to be too particular on that point; at present a misunderstanding, he should be he was persuaded facts enough presented them- unwilling to deprive this country of the advanselves to the recollection of every member, to tages to be derived from having Ministers at confirm his remark. It might be said that on those places; besides, if our Ministers were to this also we have an awful lesson. If evil had be recalled from thence, it would be considered been experienced from this cause, he hoped it as an extraordinary proceeding; and might be would operate as a reason to endeavor to dimin- construed as intended to be hostile to them. ish it. He thought it not unreasonable for the Whatever influence Spain or Holland may have House to interpose their restraining power as to in the councils of the country which he had granting money, and the more particular estab- alluded to, by continuing our Ministers there, it lishment of the officers, and thus aid the other was probable that weight would operate in our departments of the Government in bringing favor. There was an additional reason with back, by degrees, this part of our policy to its respect to Spain. It was well known that we former principles, so well sanctioned by expe- had points yet to settle with that country. rience. Whether the present motion was well Our treaty with that power was not yet carried timed, or whether it was best to give it another into effect, and negotiations might at this time short limitation, before we went into a definite be going on in relation to it, which might be establishment, was another question, on which frustrated by the recall of our Ministers. he was willing to hear more remarks. Informed as he was at present, he should vote for the motion, and thought they might make some amendments to the former bill, already suggested by experience, and which would be useful. The committee rose, and had leave to sit again. FRIDAY, January 19. Foreign Intercourse. The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill providing the means of foreign intercourse, when Mr. PINCKNEY rose. He understood the amendment was intended to confine our Ministers Plenipotentiary to London and Paris, and that no higher grade than Ministers Resident should be employed in any other country. He was opposed to this change at this time, and to the mode proposed of doing the business, if the time were seasonable. It was proper that at this juncture our Ministers should remain as they were, as it was prudent to derive all the influence and advantage we could from the situation | of our agents in Europe, who would not only be enabled to communicate more correct information from thence, than could be derived from any other source, but who could also explain the motives and objects of this Government, and by that means remove any unfavorable Mr. NICHOLAS wished to explain his intentions in bringing forward this amendment. He believed the gentleman last up would find they nearly corresponded with his own. He had no idea of putting an immediate veto upon the Ministers at present employed. He considered this bill, though passed with a limitation, as a permanent system, and a subsequent clause of the bill would enable the committee to fix the time at which the salaries of Ministers should cease. His wish was to put a limit to this extension of Executive power. He reminded the gentleman from South Carolina that Holland was not concerned in this bill, as we had only a Minister Resident there. If the subject were further dilated upon, he should offer some further remarks upon it. Mr. N. SMITH was surprised to hear the gentleman last up considered that as a permanent provision which was limited to a duration of two years. This law was merely temporary in its nature, and if he only contemplated some future regulations in our foreign intercourse, his amendment was not now necessary. However competent it was for the Legislature to settle the salary of Ministers, it was clear the Legislature had no power, by the constitution either to determine the number of foreign Ministers to be employed, where they should be |