it was still his opinion, that if the Spanish people continued to display that energy which they had shewn not many months ago, the struggle in that country was by no means at an end. But supposing that struggle to be now completely at an end, did not other views open to the mind of the honourable gentleman, and shew the necessity still of increasing our armies? Were we to suppose that no occasion could ever after occur in which they might be wanted on foreign service, or that the exertions of man kind were for ever to be tied down by the tyranny and usurpation of one individual? [Loud cries of hear!: hear! If no field of action presented itself in Europe, British interests might call them for the defence of another part of the world [he here appeared to allude to South America]; while, at the same time, we must keep an invincible army on our own shores to protect them from danger and from insult. He hoped that these considerations would be considered as sufficient arguments for the general principle of increasing the disposable force. He believed an honourable gentleman on the other side had fallen into a great mistake in stating the diminution of the army in the present year, and he believed the mistake arose from the artillery being included in the return of the last year, who were not included in the return of the present. In considering how the army was at present orga nized, there were 126 battalions of infantry, whose num-/ bers exceeded 600, and there were fifty-six that fell short in number. It was well known that battalions, not amounting to 600, were considered inefficient, and not fit for service, and that the efficiency of the army depended a great deal on the battalions being full and complete. If this measure obtained 27,000 men, it would complete all the battalions of our infantry up to 900 men. There never was, perhaps, a more efficient army for its number, than that which was lately acting upon the continent. In Portugal there were about 29,000 men in thirty-two regiments: if there was now a deficiency in the fulness of our battalions, from the losses of that campaign, it was absolutely necessary that it should be repaired. This was a measure which would not only increase the disposable force, but ameliorate the internal organization of our army, and prevent the country being burdened with inefficient second battalions.

He should next advert to a former topic, namely, the

comparative merit of the plan of a right honourable gen tleman (Mr. Windham) and the experiment which he had thought proper to make, of allowing men, (if they pleased) to enlist for unlimited service. Now, if the gen tlemen on the other side contended, that experience had' decided in favour of the theoretic principles of the right honourable gentleman, he thought he could account for the result. His experiment had, in fact, been only tried for the last six months. For the first eight months of the time the gentlemen begun their calculation, it was con trary to law for men to enlist for unlimited service, and therefore all the recruits that were got were for the limited service. For several months after it was lawful, it did not appear to be generally understood in the army. It was not till the last six months that any had begun to enlist for unlimited service. The first month only 12 mea enlisted for unlimited service; but as the thing became understood," the number progressively increased. In December, no less than 970 men preferred the unlimited service. Of the last 1400 recruits which were raised, about 1100 chose the unlimited service; so, that, instead of his experiment having failed, he thought it was evident that men preferred generally the unlimited service to the limited, and the profession of a soldier to the seven years service, which looked more like a trade. He had been twitted with its being an Irish discovery, perhaps suited to the temper and spirit of the Irish nation, but not adapted to this country, or its more sober neighbour, Scotland. The event, however, did not justify this charge, as he was always much more disposed to rest his arguments on experience and facts, than upon abstract principles of phi losophy. He was perfectly convinced that there was no other rational ground for the system of the right honourable gentleman, than it was likely to produce more men ; for it never could be said that it was likely to improve the discipline of the army. He was so far from rejecting the system altogether, that he by no means wished to exclude men from entering for limited service, being convinced that there were many men who would prefer this mode of enlistment; but as he was equally convinced that there. were many others who would prefer the enlisting for unlimited service, he thought it but fair they should be allowed their option. He wished to carry along with the more perishable materials of an army, as much as he could

get of permanent. The fact about the number of recruits was, that whatever was the system, the country regularly produced about 1200 men a month. How the number came to be so exact, he could not say. Recruiting serjeants might often put grave legislators to the blush, and there was a certain recruiting law which that house did not understand, and which perhaps got the men better than acts of parliament. Even in the halcyon days of high bounty, and no ballot, it was not found that the number' of recruits exceeded the regular number by 100 men, nor under any other system did they fall short to that amount.

It had been mentioned, that large armies were dangerous to civil liberty. Gracious God! could any rational man now suppose, that the liberties of this country were in any danger from any regular army that it was judged proper to raise, balanced as that army must be by an im mense force of militia, local militia, and other armed descriptions of force; and still more balanced by those constitutional feelings which animated no description of his majesty's subjects more strongly than it did our gal lant armies, which had so often and so recently acquired immortal honor, for themselves and their country. He trusted the house would not be discouraged by the present aspect of affairs, but that they would see the necessity of increasing rapidly our disposable force.

Sir Thomas Turton hoped some good and substantial grounds would be given by the noble lord as a foundation for the present bill. What object there was in contemplation by the increase of the regular force, he could' not see. Was there to be another Quixotic_expedition into Spain, or another convention of Cintra? It would be but right to state what was the disposable force of the country. He thought the great force on which the nation could depend was its naval force. History proved it, Rome could not conquer Sicily, although so near lier, until she first overcame the Carthaginian fleet. He stated his determined opposition to the bill.

Mr. Culcraft said, that be well remembered what vaunts there were last session concerning the vast and efficient force of the country. There was now no distinct account of our losses laid before us, and the cry of victory was every where shouted in our ears. Why then was there a draught of 20,000 men demanded to supply losses which might be barely conjectural, but which we could not see?

Last year the statement of our military force placed it at. 239,000; and yet now we are told that it is reduced to 210,000; and, at the same time, told that our losses in the last campaign did not amount to more than 4000 men! There was then a chasm of but 4000 to be filled up, and it would be but becoming in the noble lord to state for what he wanted the remainder of the levy. There ought to be. some reckoning, some detail. The plan of his right honourable friend (Mr. Windham), had, in one quarter, during which alone it had been acted on without interruption, produced at the rate of 24,000 men per annum, a levy fully sufficient to answer all casualties. The noble lord had wished that our force might be efficient, as we might have a great part to play upon the Continent; for his part, he could not nor would not suppose any such thing, and he hoped government would well consider what support. they were likely to obtain, and their comparatively in significant power, before such a plan was acted on, lest a second Spanish campaign should ensue; but these topics he would not now dilate on, as they were again to be debated; his grand objection to the present bill was, that it went to impose a partial tax for a general service.

Colonel Frankland wished to know what were our mili tary means, and how they were expended; perhaps there. might be a necessity for the present bill, but still it went to accuse the house of inconsistency. The house in their address to his majesty, had promised to increase the disposable military force of the country, bnt without encroaching on the force intended for its domestic defence, which, in his mind, this bill went to do, by its disorgani zation of the militia; it went also to overturn a maxim of the country, that there should always be a force not at the disposal of any improvident ambition; he thought the ap proval of the bill would be both undue and deceitful, after the pledge which the house had given.

Lord Temple condemned the systematic principle which had now been adopted by ministers, of filling up their regular armies, by drafting from the militia. He insisted, that the system of his right honourable friend (Mr. Windham), had been the most successful, as out of 27,000, which had volunteered from the militia, 20,000 entered under the system. That system, under the administration of his right honourable friend, was producing 24,000 reeruits a year, instead of 13,000, which was all the noble

lord could get; and if it had begun to lose its power, it was only from the moment it was clasped in the cold embrace of that noble lord. He thought that if the system had been steadily persevered in, ministers would not be obliged to have recourse to the present unfair and unhandsome mode of treating the militia.

Several other members spoke on the subject.

The question was then put, and carried without a division.

The bill was read a second time, and ordered to be com mitted for Monday.

Adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

FRIDAY, FEB. 3.

SPAIN AND PORTUGAL.

Lord Erskine rose to make the motion of which he had given notice, for accurate returns of the number of officers and men belonging to the infantry, the cavalry, and the artillery, who had been embarked at different ports of this country and Ireland, for Spain and Portugal. He also wished to have an account delivered in of the expenditure, under the different heads of money, arms, clothing, &c. which had been sent at different times to the Spanish patriots. Also an account of the horses, waggon train, &c. He likewise wished to have a return made of the men, horses, artillery, &c. that had been relanded not in a disabled state, from the different ports of Spain. As the noble lord understood there would be no objection to the returns he called for, he should merely trouble the house with moving for them. The noble lord then proceeded to move, "that an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying that his majesty would be graciously pleased to give directions that these different returns be laid before the house."

The Earl of Liverpool had no objection to the motions of the noble lord. He only wished him to bear in mind, that accurate returns, such as the noble lord has called for, could not be immediately forthcoming. It must be some time before the different regimental returns could be regularly made; and only rose to state, that VOL. 1.-1809. 2 E