Sir C. Harbord. Usually the lords concurrence is asked, and hopes they will agree with you.

Mr. Crouch would know what this Bill should be brought in for, upon what heads, what you would add, or repeal? Seconds the motion for the lords concurrence.

Mr. Seymour. Never thought it fit to persecute or prosecute any person, that believes not as he believes; it may have the power of the sword, but not the power of godliness: when this Address is presented to the king, would have it declared to the king, that this house has it under consideration.

Sir Wm. Coventry is the same man in this to day, as he was the other day at the debate of the Declaration., That thing was knocked on the head at the committee, because no order from you; and the committee thought it not fit to promise that which we were not certain to effect, and that was the great reason at the committee. If we promise, we must perform, though to our detriment: the committee must have heads to work upon: some are for indulging Protestant subjects only, and some for extending it to Catholic subjects. It may be, those great promissory words may amount to more than either you or the king means: would have Monday set apart for the matter of Dissenters to be taken into consideration, though he believes men are, by the discourse of the thing, prepared in their opinions, though not in their judgments.

Sir Tho. Lee thinks it necessary that now you do something, because possibly something in your Address to the king may startle those kind of people, the Dissenters: to pass a general vote may be so construed, that it may perhaps be too general; such a vote, perhaps, never passed here before: moves for a Bill for Uniting Protestant subjects. Here is ground for you, though he would be glad to see a man so happy as to comprehend all your senses in that bill: pass the vote, and I hope something may be done this day.

Mr. Secretary Coventry. Though the thing be of as great importance and large extent as may be, if you intend to thrive in the Address to the king, you must prepare something of such a vote, as is mentioned, to the king: would have no Bill admitted, but upon your

vote, and reasons for it.

Sir Nich. Carew. Tender conscience' is of large extent; Turks, Jews, &c. have consciences: would have uniting Protestant subjects' added to the question.

VOL. IV.

Sir Rob. Howard. As you would confirm the minds of some, so you would give terror to others. You must do something to indulge as well as unite; it is not fair to bind it up thus.

Sir Rob. Carr is pleased with Carew's motion. For aught he thinks, he that pretends to be one thing, may be a Turk in his heart, and therefore would have it general.

Sir Tho. Meres does believe the word 'ease' is the business which is disputable, whether toleration or comprehension. The words of his majesty's Speech are, ease of Protestant subjects in matters of Religion.'

Col. Birch. If you will give indulgence in an act of parliament, your question must be for ease of Protestant Subjects.' Moves for it. Sir G. Downing. You intend this vote to be presented to the king; he should be loth you tell the king what we shall not be able to do: would, on Monday, have the house in a grand committee, and stop the Address in the mean time.

Sir John Duncombe. Upon this debate of tender consciences, every man is for himself, and excluding others. He speaks of a tender conscience-man, such as has been born in his religion, and lives peaceably in it: do what is agreeable to charity; lay not your foundation too narrow; let all have the benefit of indulgence. Not an universal ease, but you must qualify it. They all are alike to him. He would consider none of them for indulgence as opposite to the Church of England. The last session, the motion for indulgence was diverted thinks no peace now without it: would have the debate be for ease of tender consciences.'

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Sir C. Harbord. The king, in this business, is most troubled of all men. Something must be done, we shall else put the king upon some great necessity: would have a bill for ease of tender consciences in matters of Religion,' and that will be capacious enough: has regard to the church, as built upon the state, the monarchy..

Mr. Harwood sees something at the brink of men's lips that will not come out; our aim is to bring all dissenting men into the Protestant Church, and he that is not willing to come into the Church should not have ease. Many of these persons differ not but in discipline, not in doctrine: would have the question for Dissenters of the Protestant subjects only.'

Mr. Milward is for debating this business in a grand committee, that persons may reply one upon another. They may be seemingly Protestants, yet not truly so: he has a great tenderness for such as have been brought up in their religion: would have a difference between monarchical dissenters and antimonarchical.

Sir Lancelot Lake would spare tender consciences, because so few make any consciences of their ways: before we proceed, would have us agree in the definition of a tender conscience.'

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considerable. If so few as we apprehend and hope, they are not considerable in the war; if many, it is time to look after them, and hinder the growth, and would not mingle them therefore, but retain the word Protestant' in the question.

Sir Rob. Carr likes neither the papists nor dissenters, but the papists have fought for the king, the others have not; therefore would have more kindness for them.

Mr. Powle never thought of extirpating the Papists, but would not have them equal to us. Their insolence is the complaint in every street. This has filled the minds of the people with apprehensions. They have abused the king's favour. There are some good and some bad among them. Would have the nation secured of our own religion, especially seeing that some of them have crept into commands and employments would have the word 'Protestant' in the question,

Sir Henry Herbert is not for enlarging the question, for the Papists at this time enjoy liberties beyond us. They are neither sheriff's, constables, nor tything-men, nor are any laws put in execution against them. Knows very well that at Edgehill battle, the late king complained that they did not their duty, and during the war they lay couchant at Worcester. Religion is to be preferred before all considerations. The best foundation of the state is religion; it makes men more peaceable and better subjects. The Quaker and Anabaptist have no foundation. He has greater apprehensions of the Papists than of any others. Superfetations of religion are horrible. Has travelled, and (he thanks God) came home a better Protestant than he went. Their wine is the better in France by being brought into England, but our gentry worse by going into France. The Papists are wholly excluded out of the question; for they are not quiet and peaceable men, as others are.

It was then resolved, nem. con. "That a Bill be brought in for the Ease of his majesty's Protestant subjects that are Dissenters in matters of Religion from the Church of England."

Debate on desiring the Concurrence of the Lords to the Address.] The question being put, That the Concurrence of the Lords be desired, to the Petition and Address to the King,

Mr. Swynfin said, If you had voted, upon a single vote, what laws to be suspended, and what not, you must have gone to the lords; but now it is involved with other things, you cannot; your Message must have been singly upon the vote. It is a matter in which the lords cannot agree with you, viz. You say you have taken the matter of the Speech into consideration; if the lords have not, they cannot agree with you. For a single judgment uninvolved, you must go to them, and for an opinion in law.

Sir Rd. Temple. No precedent that ever we went single to the king in things of this

nature without the lords. You went to the king and offered him reasons for what you could not concur with in his Speech. About relaxation in the Petition of Right, you went to the lords to join with you in petitioning the king, that the laws might have their free course. This Address is to the same effect. We never went alone in a public concern of the kingdom to the king. The matter of your Petition is a judgment in law. Hopes not for a good success if you go without the lords. If you take this course, the lords may justly object, that you declare law without them; the king may possibly say, he will have the advice of the lords before he gives an answer, and will think it unreasonable to do it, without consulting the lords and the judges.

Mr. Attorney Finch. The former going without the lords, about the Declaration of Breda, was no judgment of law. Did you ever desire a Proclamation against the Papists, but by both Speakers, hand in hand? Do you think this matter of less consequence? He granted this indulgence to peers as well as commons. If they shall differ from you, it lies at their doors, and you have discharged yourselves. Will not you acquaint the lords in an universal judgment of law? The king may deny it because not parliamentary. To send it to the lords, is the way to make it more easily pass, and it is for your honour to do so.

Sir Wm. Coventry. When you asked liberty of access to the king's person, it was for yourselves, not the lords. In the Petition of Right there was more need than in this, for that had the force of a law. We usually go to the lords when things are in doubt; but may we not by ourselves claim our laws, and that they may have a free course? Some among the lords may be distasted with your vote. It may be, the lords will have conferences to delay. In all the debates we have avoided disputes of prerogative and liberties; the committee would not touch reasons for fear of offence. Will you go from your former precedents, and put hazard of conferences, which will put us upon arguing what we would not argue here, and put ourselves upon that rock we would avoid?

Mr. Milward. In your vote you have declared the law, and now you would avoid the judgment of the highest judicature. The Petition of Right is de jure to be granted, and therefore the lords to be consulted. Before the lords come to Addresses they will consider, and conferences are natural, and can never be avoided in any transaction with the lords.-The Question being put that the concurrence of the lords be desired, &c. it passed in the negative, 125 to 110.

Sir Job Charlton quits the Chair, and Mr. Seymour chosen in his place.] Feb. 15. The Speaker, Sir Job Charlton, being much indisposed*, the house adjourned to Tuesday, Feb. 18; when being met, and the Speaker's in

"Some insinuated that the Speaker was sick of his post." Grey,

disposition growing still more upon him, that he was not able to attend the service of the house, and having, by letters, desired leave of his majesty and the house to resign the place of Speaker, and retire into the country, Mr. Edward Seymour, eldest son of sir Edw. Seymour, bart. being nominated and recommended, by Mr. Secretary Coventry, as a fit person, both in respect of his ability and experience, as also of his constitution and health of body, for the Speaker; he was accordingly chosen, presented, and approved of by his maj.

Debate on the Bill for granting Ease to Protestant Dissenters.] Feb. 19. The house resolved into a committee, to take into consideration the subject-matter of a Bill for Ease to his maj.'s Protestant subjects, who are Dissenters, in matters of Religion, from the Church of England.

Sir Lancelot Lake, citing a passage in St. John of those who called themselves Jews and were not, moved to have the 39 Articles read, and would have that the test.

Mr. Hale moved to know what the gentlemen concerned in the king's Declaration would move you in, for redress of their grievances.

Sir Tho. Lee. Our debate is from the late vote, who you would have eased.' Would have the question to Subscribers to the Articles of the Church of England,' and thinks that a good test.

Sir Nich. Carew would have the Church of England as strong as you can against the Church of Rome. Would be loth to ask toleration of them. Would take in those that dissent not in matters of doctrine.'

Sir John Birkenhead. The leveller will not have the minister have two livings, nor the gentleman two manors, no emperor, no king. Are such as these the men you would ease? Before you consider what ease to give them, know from them what they would have, for one thing will not please them all; but says one, Who represents them? By licences granted since the Declaration you may know who represents them. And made a large discourse of our Religion settled by act of parliament.

Mr. Garroway. We are all beholden to Birkenhead for telling us that the parliament makes Religion, and the Articles, valid. Consider your vote and your Address. Dissenters are many, and not one vote can comprehend them all: would make your first steps to bring in the better sort, and if you find the door too strait, make it wider to bring in more, Moves, for the least, so many as will agree to the 39 Articles, or as many of them as relate to the doctrine of the Church of England.' We have people that would come in: the Papists are under an anathema, and cannot come in under pain of excommunication. Mr. Secretary Coventry. It is a good motion, made to see what those out of the Church do desire. A man would give something to get something, but would not give something to get nothing. We confess that things of ceremony are in themselves indifferent, and

Mr. Vaughan. If any one asks, Who are these Dissenters representatives? We are their representatives, as for other people, and we must judge what is fit for them. Put some test upon them, and then we may know what to be relayed.

Mr. Crouch.

Ease' implies a burden of some weight. Would any physician advise with a patient, without knowing what he ails? Would know what it is would satisfy these people, before we proceed any farther.

Sir Wm. Coventry. It is reasonable that you consider them to whom you would give ease.' Did not know that the levellers, as many others, were religious, before Birkenhead called them so. And another sort he mentioned, those who believed Christianity because settled by act of parliament, knows not where that sort is. Moves that the persons we shall take care of, may be those that will subscribe to the doctrine of the Church of England, and will take the oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy.

Sir Tho. Doleman would not have it extend to such, as allow a Dispensation for such as take the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy.

Sir Wm. Coventry does not rise to controvert what Birkenhead said, but to rectify an error. Does doubt that it may be apprehended that such as will take the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy' shall be capable of preferment in the Church of England. The test that must be put upon persons to make them capable of preferment, must be a farther thing.

Resolved, at the committee, "That ease shall be given to his majesty's Protestant subjects that will subscribe to the doctrine of the Church of England, and take the oaths of allegiance and supremacy."

Sir Philip Warwick. That you may be able to do something, moves that the Convocation may have the business to consider of it.

Sir Tho. Lee. Thinks this ease,' in order to taking them into the Church, may be 'a great ease to them.' By this vote, they may comfortably follow their trades. Ceremonies are necessary for your house, and for the church, as your cloaths are for your person. Would next have it taken into consideration. what shall make them capable of Preferment in the Church.

Mr. Love. What would satisfy them, is a

* This gentleman, who was an alderman of the City of London, was himself a Dissenter. See p, 538. Note.