no just cause of having any imputation lie at our door, I agree in the motions that have been made for an Address.

Lord Russel. Sir, if ever there should happen in this nation any such change, as that I should not have liberty to live a protestant, I am resolved to die one; and therefore would not willingly have the hands of our enemies strengthened, as I suppose they would be, if we should give Money while we are sure it must go to the hands of the duke's creatures. Doth not the duke's interest endanger the king's life? And are not our lives and fortunes in danger to be swallowed up by his power? And shall we yet make them stronger by puting Money into their bands? No sir, they are too strong already; but whenever his maj. shall be pleased to free us of the danger of a Popish Successor, and remove, from his council and places of trust, all those that are for his interest, (because there can be no distinction made between the duke's interest and popish) then, sir, I will conclude, that what Money we shall give, will be disposed of according to his majesty's own royal pleasure, and for the true protestant interest. And I shall be ready to give all I have in the world, if his maj. should have occasion for it; but in the mean time I pray, sir, let us not endeavour to destroy ourselves by our own hands. If we may not be so happy as to better the condition of the nation, I pray, sir, let us not make it worse. And until the king shall be pleased to give us encouragement to express our duty and loyalty to him, by giving him Money, let us do it by making an Address.

Sir W. Temple. Sir, this debate hath more of weight in it, than the business of Tangier, I think. As affairs now stand, the most part of Christendom is concerned in it, I am sure all the protestants. And therefore I hope your patience will hold out, to have the whole circumstances of it fairly examined: For the arguments that have been offered in the consideration of this Message, have inlarged the debate farther than was at first intended, and have brought the whole State of the Nation in some measure before you, instead of that one particular business of Tangier; so that now what resolve you make will be a discovery of your inclinations, not only as to what you intend to do as to a Supply for Tangier, but as to giving Money for Alliances and all other occasions, upon which result, the good or bad success of this parliament doth depend. As to Tangier, I do agree with that worthy member that spoke before, that it is not of any great use to us upon the account of any advantage we shall make by it. But however, I think it is very well worth our keeping, because of the disadvantages we should receive by it, if it should fall into the hands cither of the Turk, or Spaniard, but especially the French; who will not only be thereby enabled to fetter us, as to our trade in the Levant, but to curb also all other nations whatsoever, and be such an addition to the too great power he hath acquir

ed, both by sea and land already, that I am of opinion, we ought to be very cautious how we weaken the security we now have that it shall not fall into his hands. But if the Mole and the Town could be blown into the air, or otherwise reduced into its first chaos, I think, considering the charge it will cost keeping, England would not be much the worse for it; but to move you to consider any thing about that, at this time, cannot be proper, because the Moors have so besieged it, that the first thing that must be done, whether in order to keep it, or destroy it, is, to beat them off, by some speedy supplies which must be presently sent, or else the town, according to the best information come from thence, is like to be lost. And, sir, I think this single consideration may be persuasive to move you to give some such Supply, as may be precisely necessary for the defence and protection of this place. A small sum of money, in comparison of what this house hath formerly given, may be sufficient to satisfy his majesty's expectation, and secure the place too. But I must confess, sir, it is not the consideration of Tangier that makes me press you to it; but the deplorable estate of the protestants abroad. Sir, I have had the honour to serve his maj. in some public employments, and by that means may be a little more sensible of the state of affairs in reference to our neighbours, than others may be, having not only had the advantage of information, but was under a necessity of using my best endeavours to get a true account of them. Sir, I am confident the eyes of all Europe are upon this parliament; and not only the protestants abroad, but many Catholic countries, (who stand in fear of the power of France) do think themselves as much concerned in the success of this parliament, as this house, and will be as much perplexed to hear any ill news thereof. This, sir, as well as the necessities of our affairs at home, makes me trouble you at this time, to desire you to be careful what you do, that we may not occasion, in his maj. any dislike to this house. Whatever you do as to the business of Money for Tangier, I pray, sir, let there be no notice taken in your Address, of the lords having cast out your Bill; for we have no reason to think the king was any ways concerned therein. To throw out a Bill of so great importance, without a conference, was, in my humble opinion, very strange, and contrary to the usual proceedings of that house. But pray, sir, let it lie at their doors that did it, for the king could not be concerned in a parliamentary way. For by this means we may obviate all misunderstandings with his maj. about this affair, and I hope, create in him a good opinion of this house, upon which the welfare not only of this nation, but of Europe, doth much depend.-Sir, his maj. in his Message puts you in mind of giving Advice as well as Money. I think if we make that expression the ground of our Address, we may naturally graft very good things thereon, especially what may conduce to the preserva

tion of a fair correspondence. Sir, though a king alone cannot save a kingdom, yet a king alone can do very much to ruin it: and though a parliament alone cannot save this kingdom, yet parliaments alone may do much to ruin it. And therefore we cannot be too circumspect in what we do. It is our fortune to sit here in a critical time, when not only the affairs of this nation, but the Protestant Religion abroad, need our continuance; and for the same reason we may justly fear, that there are those who endeavour to contrive the putting off this parliament. I pray, sir, let us not give them any advantage, and then I doubt not but his majesty's care and goodness will at last overcome all difficuities, and bring this session to a happy conclusion.

Mr. Edward Deering.] Sir, I think his majesty may easily send succour to Tangier without any great charge. Here are three or four regiments of soldiers about this town, which do rather hurt, than good to the nation; | and therefore may very well be spared; and then that Money which pays them now here, may pay them there, and so I suppose there will be no need of money, save only for their transportation. I hope there will be great care taken in drawing this Address, that so our enemies may not have any ground to represent us as a stubborn parliament, that have no intention to give Money upon any terms whatsoever. I think, sir, we may be plain with his majesty, and give him as full assurance as ever any house of commons did, that when we have those things granted, which are unavoidably necessary for the preservation of our religion, that we will freely and heartily give money for the supply of his occasions; and I cannot but hope, that such fair proceedings will occasion a happy issue to this parliament. For it cannot be doubted, but that the king is very sensible, That he owes more to his people in general, than to any one man, be he brother, or any other relation; and that he cannot, without much trouble to himself, because of his coronation oath, longer permit that our laws and religion should be in such imminent danger. And therefore I hope that we shall not only have a fair correspondency continued, but also gracious compliance, in what we have desired for the effectual security of our religion, and therefore would desire you to put the question for a committee.

Resolved, "That a committee be appointed to draw up an Address to be presented to his majesty, upon the debate of the house, humbly representing to his majesty the dangerous State and Condition of the Kingdom, in answer to his majesty's Message."

Proceedings against the Earl of Halifax.] The same day, a debate arising in the house, on a motion for an Address to his majesty to remove George earl of Halifax from his maj.'s presence and councils for ever; the question was put to adjourn the said debate, and passed in the Negative, Yeas, 95, Noes 219. which the said Address was voted.

After

Nov. 20. This day, in the house of lords, the question being propounded, Whether there shall be a Committee appointed, in order to join with a committee of the commons, to debate matters concerning the State of the Kingdom? it was resolved in the affirmative.*

Articles of Impeachment against Edw. Seymour, Esq.] The same day, sir Gil. Gerrard acquainted the house, That he had Articles of Impeachment of High Crimes, Misdemeanours and Offences, against Edw. Seymour, esq. a Member, and Treasurer of the Navy; the contents of which were to the following effect:

I. "That whereas 584,9781. was appropriated by act of parliament for the building 30 Ships of War, and it was enacted that the Treasurer of the Navy should keep all Monies paid on that Account distinct and apart from all other monies, and should issue the same by warrant of the principal officers and commis sioners of the Navy, to the said specified use, and to no other whatever: the said Edw. Seymour, being Treasurer of the Navy, contrary to his duty, had lent the sum of 90,000l. at 8 per cent. part of the sum above-mentioned, towards the support and continuance of the Army, after such time as by act of parliament the said Army ought to be disbanded; whereby the said two several Acts were eluded, and the said army was kept on foot, to the great disturbance, hazard, and danger of the peace and safety of this kingdom; and the nation was afterwards put to a new Charge of raising 200,000l. for the disbanding the said Army. II. That whereas a Poll-Tax was granted to enable his majesty to enter into an actual War with France, and for the repayment of any such persons as should furnish his majesty with Money or Stores for that end: and whereas certain East-Land Merchants did supply great quantities of Naval Stores, on being assured that 40,000l. part of the Money raised by the said Act, was at that time actually in the hands of the said Edw. Seymour, which he likewise acknowledged, and did promise to pay the said Merchants in part of satisfaction for the said Stores; he the said Edward Seymour did issue out the said sum to the victuallers of the navy by way of advance for provisions not brought in, contrary to the meaning of the said Act, and of which the said merchants did complain in parliament. III. That the said Edw. Seymour being Treasurer of the Navy, and then, and still having a salary of 3000l. per ann. clear for the same, during the time he was Speaker for the late Long Parliament, did receive out of the Monies appointed for Secret Service the yearly sum of 3000l. over and above the said salary, which was constantly paid to him, as well during the intervals, as the sessions of parliaments; and particularly during the prorogation of 15 months. IV. That during the Dutch War, the said Edw. Seymour being one of the Commissioners of Prizes, did frau

* See Appendix, No. X and XII.

dulently and unlawfully unlade a Prize-Ship, without order or authority, and did house the lading of the said ship, and lock up; and afterwards, without the presence of any storekeepers, did sell the same for Muscovado Sugars, and did account with his majesty for the same as such; when, in truth, the said ship was laden with cochineal, indigo, and other merchandizes of a great value."

Ordered, "That sir Edw. Seymour have a Copy of the said Articles; and that he do put in his Answer on the 25th."

Address to remove the Earl of Halifax.] Nov. 22. Mr. Trenchard reported the Address to his majesty to remove the earl of Halifax,* when a motion was made to re-commit the said Address, but it passed in the negative, Yeas 101, Noes 213. After which, it was agreed to by the house, as follows:

sire to preserve all possible good understanding with this house, he chuses to decline to enter into particulars, to avoid all occasions of dispute. He, therefore, thinks fit to tell them, That he doth not find the grounds in the Address of this house to be sufficient to induce him to remove the earl of Halifax. But he answers them at the same time, that whenever the house shall, in a due and regular course, prove any crime either against the said earl or any other person, who either now is, or here after shall be in his council, he will leave hun or them to their own legal defence, without interposing to protect them.'

Debate on discharging a Middlesex Grand Jury.] Nov. 23. Lord Russel. There are some persons at the door, who can give you an account of the illegal proceedings of my lord chief justice Scroggs, in discharging the Grand Jury of Middlesex.-Whereupon, several of the Grand Jury were called in, and some other persons, who gave an account of the carriage of that matter, as will be at large recited in the Articles against the lord chief justice Scroggs.

"We your majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, &c. being deeply sensible of the manifold dangers and mischiefs that have been occasioned to your kingdom by the Dissolution of the last parliament, and by the frequent Prorogations of the present parliament, whereby the Papists have been greatly encouraged Sir Wm. Jones. Sir, the preservation of the to carry on their wicked and damnable con- government in general, as well as our particu spiracies against your royal person and govern-lar safeties, have a dependance upon the mat. ment, and the Protestant Religion now established amongst us, have had many opportunities to contrive false and malicious Plots against the lives and honours of several of your loyal Protestant subjects; and having just reason to believe, that the said Dissolution was promoted by the evil and wicked councils of George earl of Halifax, do, therefore, most humbly pray your majesty, for the taking away all occasion of distrust and jealousies between your majesty and us your loyal commons; and that we may with greater chearfulness, proceed to perfect those matters now before us, which tend to the safety and honour of your sacred person and government, and the preservation of the true Protestant Religion, both to ourselves and our posterity, That you would be graciously pleased to remove the said George earl of Halifax from your presence and councils for ever."

The King's Answer.] To this Address, his majesty sent the following Answer:

"C. R. His majesty, having received the Address of this house, relating to the earl of Halifax, has thought fit to return this Answer: That he conceives the said Address to be liable to several exceptions: but, having a great de

* Created marquis of Halifax in 1682, and soon after made Lord Privy Seal, and upon king James's accession appointed Lord President of the Council; but upon refusing to consent to the Repeal of the Test, he was dismissed from all his employments. In the Convention-Parliament he was chosen Speaker of the house of lords, and was again made Lord Privy Seal by king William, but being attacked in parliament in 1689, he quitted that post, and died in 1695.

ter that is now before you; in which there are so many miscarriages so complicated, as there ariseth some difficulty how to examine them. I cannot but observe, how the Proclamation is here again mentioned; by which you may conclude there lieth a great weight on the people's right to petition by means thereof; and that the best way to remove it is, to find out the advisers and contrivers of that Proclamation, in order to proceed against them ac cording to their deserts.. Without which, what you have done in asserting the right of petitioning, will remain with some doubt; and those that advised the proclaiming to the people, that it is seditious to petition the king, without that chastisement they deserve. And therefore I humbly conceive, you will do well to consider of it as soon as you can. It is not strange, that the Proclamation shall be made use of with country gentlemen, to get Abhorrers to petitioning; seeing the Judges them selves have made use of it to that purpose: they should have known, that though a Proclamation might be of great use, to intimate the observation of a law; yet it had never been used instead of a law. But yet I do not admire so much at this, as I do at the Discharge of the Grand-Jury, before they had finished their presentments. It tends so much to the subversion of the established laws of this land, that I dare pronounce that all the laws you have already, and all that you can make, will signify nothing against any great man, unless you can remedy it for the future. I observe, there were two reasons why this Grand Jury were so extra-judicially discharged, one, because they would otherwise have presented the duke of York for a Papist; the other, because they presented a Petition to be

delivered to the king, for the sitting of the parliament; which they said it was not their business to deliver. Though I cannot but observe, how, upon other occasions, they did receive petitions, and delivered them to the king; and all the difference was, that those petitions so delivered, were against sittings of parliaments. The truth is, I cannot much condemn them for it; for if they were guilty of such crimes as the witnesses have this day given you information of, I think they had no reason to further petitions for the sitting of a parliament. But, sir, this business will need a farther information; and therefore I humbly pray it may be referred to a committee.

Sir Henry Capel. This matter is of the greatest moment. We are under the security of parliaments for redressing our grievances, and another, out of parliament, that the law have its course, that the Judges obstruct not the law. I observe that these Judges are grown omnipotent. They have done those things which they should have left undone.' This is very fine, that Judges, who must be upon the Bench, must be dropped at Whitehall, before they come to Westminster-Hall; and I know what law we must have, if they take instructions from those that advised the Proclamation against Petitioning. See the consequence; is it not as much as to say, that the Judges know all the grievances of the country, and the Judges must redress them, and we sit here but for form-sake? All misdemeanors, and what is amiss in the nation, the Judges must rectify. This is such a presumption, that they must answer it. If this be done in Westminster-Hall, how dare grand juries in the country represent any thing that is amiss? Suppose there should be an indictment of murdering a man's father or brother, &c. and the Judges take upon them to discharge the jury; this stops all justice, and the consequence will be, men will murder us, and we kill them again. I move, therefore, that you will proceed to punish the offender in this great matter, and remedy the miscarriage for the time to come.

been a failure of justice. As faults committed by Judges are of more dangerous consequence than others to the public; so there do not want precedents of severer chastisements for them, than for others. I humbly move you, first, to pass a Vote upon this business, of discharging Grand-Juries; and then to appoint a Committee to examine the Miscarriages of the Judges in Westminster-Hall, and to report the same with all speed to you.

Col. Titus. Sir, as it hath been observed, that this business hath some reference to the Proclamation; so I believe, there is something of the Plot in it too. And therefore I think if this Plot does not go on, it will have the worst luck that ever Plot had; seeing the Judges, as well as most other persons in public places, have given it as much assistance as they could. But whereas some have spoken ill of these Judges, I desire to speak well of them in one thing: I am confident they have herein shewed themselves grateful to their benefactors; for I do believe, that some of them were preferred to their places of purpose, because they should do what they have done. Laws of themselves are but dead letters; unless you can secure the execution, as well of those you have already, as of those you are now making, we shall spend our time to little purpose.

Mr. Sacheverel. Sir, the business of this debate is a great instance of our sick and languishing condition. As our ships, forts, and castles, are for securing us from the danger of our enemies from abroad, so our laws from our enemies at home; and if committed to such persons as will turn their strength upon us, are equally dangerous. Sir, we all know how the government of Scotland hath been quite altered since his majesty's Restoration, by some laws made there; pray let us have a care that ours be not altered, by the corrupt proceedings of Judges, lest we be reduced to the same weak condition of defending ourselves against Popery and arbitrary government here, that they are there. If Judges can thus prevent Sir F. Winnington. Sir, I think we are the penalties of the law, by discharging Grandcome to the old times again, when the Judges Juries before they, have made their present, pretended they had a rule of government, as ments, and can make laws by their rules of court, well as a rule of law; and that they have acted the government may soon be subverted; and accordingly. If they did never read Magna therefore it is high time for this house to speak Charta, I think they are not fit to be Judges; if with those gentlemen. In former times several they had read Magna Charta, and do thus so Judges have been impeached, and hanged too, contrary, they deserve a severe chastisement. for less crimes than these; and the reason was To discharge Grand-Juries, of purpose to dis- because they had broke the king's oath as well appoint them of making their presentments, is as their own. If what hath been said of some to deprive the subject of the greatest benefit of these Judges be fully proved, they shall not and security the law hath provided for them. want my Vote to inflict on them the same If the Judges, instead of acting by law, shall chastisement. The truth is, sir, I know not be acted by their own ambition; and endea how the ill consequences we justly fear from vour to get promotions, rather by worshipping judges can be prevented, as long as they are the rising sun, than by doing justice, this nation made durante bene-placito, and have such dewill soon be reduced to a miserable condition. pendencies as they have. But this must be a Suppose that after the discharge of this Grand-work of time in order to remedy our present Jury, some person had offered to present some murder, treason, or other capital crime, for want of the Grand-Jury there would have

Grievances, let us pass a Vote upon this business of discharging Grand-Juries; and that it may be penned as the case deserves.