Foreman. Did you never hear my lord speak treason in any house but his own? Booth. I never had occasion to hear this discourse from my lord, but in his own house: I never waited upon him in any other house. Foreman. Was you never desired to be a witness against my lord Shaftesbury? Booth. Not till I intimated something of it. Booth. That was to Mr. Banes; I told you before so. Foreman. And what then? Booth. When he told me of this business with the Yorkshire attorney, Brownrig, I did say again, I did not know what my lord had done, as to any thing of Irishmen, but I was sure there was something as to Englishmen, as to that purpose. Foreman. Did he propose any reward, or any thing of that nature? Booth. Not a farthing; for I think he had no commission to do it. Foreman. Are you acquainted with one Callaghan and Downing, two Irishmen? Booth. No. Mr. Godfrey. Were you never in their company?-Booth. Not that I know of. Mr. Godfrey. Did you ever hear their names? Booth. I do not know that I have. Foreman. Were you in their company lately? Booth. Not as I know of. I do not remember either their names, or their persons, nor do I know them from other men: Foreman. Do you know one Mr. Shelden? Foreman. Do you know one Mr. Marriot? Booth. No, Sir: I have heard of one Marriot that did belong to my lord duke of Norfolk. Foreman. When were you in his company? Booth. Never that I know of. Foreman. Has nobody discoursed him?-Booth. No, nobody. you from Foreman, Did you never hear of any witnesses he sent to his tenants? Booth. I have heard from Banes about Brownrig, about Irish witnesses. Mr. Godfrey. Did you never hear of any Irish witnesses sent down by Mr. Marriot to the isle of Ely?. Booth. My lord, I cannot go in safety here for the tumult. L. C. J. Let officers secure him: Mr. Sheriff, look to him, that the man be secure and safe; I will require him at your hands else. Sheriff Pilkinton. What should I do? L. C. J. Send your officers to protect him, as becomes you, that he may be secured from the rabble here. Mr. Turbervile. Foreman. Mr. Turbervile, when you had this discourse with my lord Shaftesbury, who was present with you? Turbervile. One of his servants; truly I cannot tell his name. Foreman. Nobody else? Turb. I know the name of none of his servants, but Mr. Sheppard; I cannot remember any body else. Foreman. Did he carry you up to my lord? Turb. It was he, I think, told me I might go in: I was in the dining-room. Foreman. What time was this? Foreman. What time was it when you had this discousse with my lord Shaftesbury? Turb. It was in February. Foreman. What time in February? Turb. About the beginning; I cannot tell exactly to a day. Foreman. How long was this before you communicated this to any body? Turb. It was about the 4th of July. Foreman. Then you concealed it from February to July: Who did you communicate it to first of all? Turb. The first deposition I gave was to Mr. Secretary. Foreman. Which Secretary? Turb. Secretary Jenkins. Foreman. Pray, what room was it you had this discourse in? Turb. Sir, it was the room at the upper end of the dining-room; I think they call it the dining room; at the upper end of the room, and turns on the left-hand, where he lay, Foreman. Did you meet with no body about L. CJ. We gave you all the liberty in the the beginning of July, after my lord's comworld, hoping you would ask pertinent ques-mitment, and tell them, when you were chaltions, but these are trifles. I did not expect lenged and told you were to be a witness that any wise men would have asked these against him, as you were alive you knew no questions. Mr Godfrey, was it to the purpose, such thing? whether Mr. Marriot sent any Irish witnesses to his tenant, or no? What is that to this busi ness. Att. Gen. My lord, this is not to be allowed: This is private instructions which the jury are not to take. Foreman. No, Sir, it is not private instructions. Did you not speak such words to William Herbert? L. C. J. Have you had any information concerning this to Mr. Herbert?" Foreman. My lord, I have, a long time ago. My lord, such a person did tell me so and so, and set down the day; and he then said he was very angry with him for it, C க course L. C. J. Look ye, gentlemen, what distake at random in every coffeeup you house, is that fit to be brought in when treason is in question against the king's life? Are these coffee-house discourses, do you think, ground enough for you to caval at persons, because you have heard this discourse in a coffeehouse? Foreman. My lord, I never was in a coffeehouse in my life with Mr. Herbert; but he declared this to me some months ago. L. C. J. And you think this is ground enough for you against him? Mr. Papillon. My lord, we only ask this question, Whether he hath not contradicted this, or said the contrary to any body else? Turb. I do not remember that ever I spake one word to Mr. Herbert in my life; and I can give you one reason: For I was discarded by all people of my lord's interest at that time? And if I had given under my hand that I had known nothing against him, I believe I might have been in their favour as much as before. Mr. Papillon. Were not you one that petitioned to the common-council in London ?" Turb. I did, Sir. Mr. Papillon. And did not you declare then, you were tempted to witness against your conscience? that Turb. I believe I never read the petition: It was drawn by the order of Mr. Colledge, by a man that lives about Guildhall; by a scriFener about Guildhall; and I signed that petition, but never read it, nor knew what was in it. L. C. J. Mr. Richardson, any you officers; watch by those men that make a noise, and bring me in one to make an example. Turb. My lord, I go in danger of my life, for the people threaten to stone me to death, and I cannot go safe to my lodging. Mr. Papition. What was your design in signing that petition? What did you look for? Turb. The design was, that the city should take care of us. Mr. Papillon. Were you in a poor condition? Turb. Truly I was not very poor, though I was not over full of money. Mr. Papilion. It is a strange thing that you should petition for relief, if you were not in want. Turb. We were told by some members of the House of Commons, that there was a vote in the House of Cominons ready to pass, that the city should advance money for the support of the witnesses, and if we would petition that they would answer the design of the parliament. Mr. Papillon. What members were they? Turb. It was a member of the House of Commons that told me so, I will assure you; two of them. Mr. Papillon. Did never any body move you, or desire you to be a witness in this case against my lord Shaftesbury? Turb. Nobody in my life, When I came to speak the truth of what I knew, I did it Mr. Papillon. You did it voluntarily? Mr. Papillon. Do you know any thing more Mr. Papillon. Mr. Turbervile, I desire to be whether my lord Shaftessatisfied in one thing, bury was committed before or after your infor mation? Tarb. Truly, Sir, I cannot tell positively, as to that point; but I believe it was before; I cannot tell. Mr. Papillon. Did you hear my lord speak these words in any other room or place? Turb. No, indeed, I did not. Mr. Papillon. It was about the 4th of July, you say, your depositions were taken ? Turb. About that time; I suppose the 4th of July-I hope your lordship will take care that we be not knocked on the head. L. C. J. That we give in charge to Mr. Sheriff; and see you do take care of the king's witnesses at your peril. It is a reflection, not only upon the government of the city to suffer these disorders, but upon the whole kingdom; therefore, Mr. Sheriff, look the witnesses come by no hurt. Mr. Papillon. Mr. Smith, the jury ask you a question, whether or no you did not use to go by the name of Barry? Smith. Sir, what names I have gone by is not pertinent to this purpose; I tell you I have gone by several names, as all popish priests do. Mr. Papillon. Did you never go by the name of Barry? Smith. It may be I might; I have gone by several names, as all popish priests do. L. C. J. Did you ever go by the name of Barry? Smith. I did, my lord; it is usual for popish priests so to do. Mr. Papillon. What religion are you of, Mr. Smith? Smith. I am a Protestant, Sir. Mr. Papillon. How long have you been a Protestant?-Smith. Many years. Mr. Papillon. When were you first converted?-Smith. First converted? Mr. Papillon. Ay, to the Protestant religion: you say you have been one many years? Smith. I have been a Protestant, and was perverted to the popish religion, and afterwards became a Protestant again. L. C. J. Bring in one of those men that make the noise. Cannot you bring in one of them? Mr. Papillon. When did you receive the Sacrament? Smith. I believe not above three months ago, as the rector of Bow Church will inform you: I have it under the church wardens hands in other places in London. Mr. Papillon. Have you been desired to be a witness, or did you do it voluntarily? Smith. Never desired, I declare it; I did it | it was about the time when Hetherington west voluntarily myself. thither. Mr. Papillon. When did you give in your evidence first? Smith. Truly, I will answer that as punctually as I can; the month or day I cannot well tell, but the person that came from me was major Manly; and he came to Bethel's club; what time that was, I cannot say; but if you please to inform yourselves of those gentlemen that I name, I believe they will tell you Mr. Bethel was there present, and knew Smith. I believe it might be a little after. very well I went to my lord Shaftesbury that Whether it was before or after, I cannnot ex-night, and returned to the club again. actly tell. Smith. Truly I cannot exactly tell when I Mr. Papillon. Was it before my lord was committed, or after? Mr. Papillon. To whom did you give your information? Smith. My lord, they commanded the people to stone us to death. L. C. J. Who did? Smith. Several persons: and when we were at the tavern, Dr. Oates's man came out and gave the rabble a bottle of wine, and bid them knock us down. L. C. J. Do you know what the man's 'name is ? Dr. Outes. I know nothing of it, my lord. L. C. J. What is your man's name? Oates. I keep half a dozen men, my lord. L. C. J. I hope you keep no men to affront the king's witnesses? Oates. No, my lord, it is a mistake, I know nothing of it; we went thither to refresh ourselves. Mr. Papillon. Mr. Smith, wlio did you give your information to? Smith. What information? Mr. Papillon. The first information. Smith. My lord, am I to answer to these questions ? L. C. J. Aye, answer them; tell them. Smith. My lord, the information I gave in to secretary Jenkins; but I gave notice long before of what I intended to do to other per sons. Mr. Papillon. When did you hear these words; speak to the time exactly? Smith. Which words do you ask? now. Smith. Sir, if you please, I know you take all in short-hand; if you ask me what words, I will tell you; for if I do not express myself in the same words as before, you will take hold of me. L. C. J. I will tell you this; this may be an ill question, for he told you, he had discoursed my lord Shaftesbury at a great many times, and that at some times he said these words, at other times other words, and for you to catch him upon a question, it doth not shew a fair inclination. Mr. Papillon. My lord, under your lordship's favour, we only desire to discover the truth, we are not for catches. L. C. J. Ask him then, which of the words you would have him declare the time of, and he will tell you? Mr. Papillon. Let him speak his own words, Mr. Godfrey. Was it in the evening or the morning? Smith. Mr. Godfrey, clubs are usually at night, I suppose; you know that was. Mr. Papillon. Where did you see my lord Shaftesbury? Smith. It was in his dining-room. Mr. Papillon. Did you hear these words in any other place, or at any other time, or any treasonable words against the king? L. C. J. Look you, gentlemen, he told you of several other words at several other times, Mr. Papillon. But he said all at his house, my lord. L. C. J. Ay, but at several times. Smith. I know, Mr. Attorney, what the gentlemen would be at very well. L. C. J. Answer them whether you did hear him speak any words that you conceive trea sonable at any other time? Smith. I did not, indeed. Mr. Papillon. In another place? Mr. Papillon. Did you petition to the common council?-Smith. No, Sir, I never did. Mr. Papillon. Are you an Englishman er an Irishman? Smith. That is no matter, no more than if I were a Frenchman or a Dutchman. L. C. J. Give them an account whether you are an Englishman or an Irishman? Smith. My lord, I beg your lordship's pardon for that; if I were an Irishman, whether thereupon my evidence would be prejudiced. L. C. J. Look you, Mr. Smith, I do hope the gentlemen of the jury have more discretion among them all, than to think that an Irishman is not a good witness, I hope they are not such persons. Smith. My lord, if you please; whilst I was in the city amongst them, I never petititioned to the city: I never had a farthing from them, nor ever spake to any for it: never had any occasion for it; but if I had, it is probable I have enough in England, and other places, without being beholden to your common-council. L. C. J. Will you ask him any more ques tions?-Jury. No, no. Mr. Papillon. Is Mr. Smith gone? I would ask him one word: we would fain know what allowance you have, or what you receive, if you have any allowance from any body? Smith, From whom? or otherwise to turn the kingdom into a commonwealth. Mr. Papillon. Fitz-gerald told you this, and so you made affidavit of it? Haynes. Yes, before sir George Treby. Haynes. It was before the parliament met at Oxford. Mr. Papillon. So you say the words were: when were the words spoken that you mentioned ? Huynes. The words against my lord? Haynes. He spake them to me a little before I made affidavit: I cannot tell positively the time? Mr. Papillon. That was before his commit Mr. Papillon. We ask if he have any allow-ment. ance? Mr. Papillon. Did not you give in an information of a design against the earl of Shaftesbury? Haynes. To none but Secretary Jenkins. Mr. Papillon. You understand the question; whether you did give no information of a design against my lord Shaftesbury to some justice of the peace? Haynes. No, no, to none but Mr. Secretary Jenkins. L. C. J. You do not observe his question: did you ever give to any justice any information of a design against my lord Shaftesbury? Haynes. Yes, my lord, I did, to sir George Treby; I made affidavit before him. Mr. Papillon. When was that? Haynes. I think it was in March last. Mr. Papillon. What was that design against my lord Shaftesbury? Haynes. The design was what Mr. Fitzgerald told me; he told me he gave under his hand to the king, that the earl of Shaftesbury did resolve to set the crown upon his own head, Haynes. Yes, yes, my lord was committed in June last; this affidavit was made in March last, before the Recorder of London.. L. C. J. North. When you ask him about the information of the design against my lord Shaftesbury, he says that was in March last; and when you ask him about the evidence he gives now, that was the same day he was apprehended by the messenger. Mr. Papillon. About June you say it was, that you say you gave in the information against my lord Shaftesbury? Haynes. The information I made against the lord Shaftesbury was in June last, the 28th, as I take it, of June last. Mr. Papillon. Where was it you had this dis course? Haynes. I had several conferences with my lord. Mr. Papillon. Did he every time say the same? Haynes. The last time I spake with him was in Ironmonger-Lane: For Whitaker told me he would speak with me, and he would fain have me explain myself what I did mean by the tall man I mentioned in the Narrative; and I went to the house, and they told me he was there, and I sent up a note, and he desired me to come up; but I sent word I did not care to come up; because I would not be known; and so he sent me word to meet him after dinner; and when I came, my name is Haynes, my lord, said I; and I led his lordship by the hand and went in there. I had, I believe, a whole hour's discourse with him and pray, my lord, said I among other questions, what religion is the king of? Truly, says he, Mr. Haynes, he hath no more religion than an horse; for, saith he, they say, Sir, he was inclined to popery when he came first to England; says he, he had a tincture of Popery, and was much inclined that way; but since he was degenerated from all the principles of christianity, for he is just like a perfect beast. Mr. Papillon. This, you say, was in Ironmonger-Lane. Haynes. Ay, Sir, at a pastry-cook's shop. Mr. Papillon. What time? Haynes. I cannot tell, Sir, for I never thought I should be called to an account for it, and I cannot keep an almanack in my head; and I desired them not to expose me to the king's fury, for I heard the king was displeased with me. No, says he, you are mistaken, this is the best opportunity we can have; and if he will not give you a pardon, we will raise the whole Kingdom against him in arms; and then he makes himself the master and author of the Plot, and consequently he must expect to be ruined, unless he grant you a pardon. Mr. Papillon. Did you ever hear any other words than what you have now testified? Haynes. Yes, Sir, for I discoursed with him in Ironmonger-lane a great while, and told him that our only and best way to have our ends of the king, was to raise a rebellion in Ireland, and that I had relations and friends, and could get discontented persons enough, and his lordship would do the work here. Mr. Papillon. What, did you propound a rebellion in Ireland ? Haynes. I offered to go beyond sea, and that now was the best time to raise a rebellion in Ireland; and he said that was not the best way, for they had other means to take, and so the discourse was waved. Mr. Papillon. And is that all ? Haynes. I was with him at his house. Haynes. No, sir; but she arrested me, because I said I lay with her. it John Macnamarra. Mr. Papillon. Mr. Macnamarra, when was you had this discourse with my lord Shaftesbury, what is the time, as near as you remember? Mac. In March and April last, Sir. Mr. Papillon. Twice then, you do speak of? Mr. Papillon. Which is that that was in Mac. That was the last; the last discourse was in April. Mr. Papillon. To what purpose was that? Muc. My lord said the king deserved to be deposed as much as king Richard the second did. Mr. Papillon. In April you say? Mac. In April. Mr. Papillon. When did you give the infor mation of this? Mac. I cannot exactly tell Sir. Mr. Papillon. Repeat what you said. Mac. That the king deserved to be deposed as much as king Richard the second, and that he took the dutchess of Mazarine's advice in every particular, which was the worst of womankind. Mr. Papillon. What time in April was this? Muc. It was in the beginning of April. Mr. Papilion. Where? Mac. In his own house. Mr. Pupillon. Who was present? Mr. Papillon. When did you make information of this? Mac. I cannot tell, it was a good while ago. Mr. Papillon. Was it before his commitment? Mac. Yes, Sir, it was. Mr. Papillon. To whom did you give information? Muc. To the secretary of state, Sir: Muc. Yes, Sir, I signed a petition that was drawn up, but I did not see it till it was brought me to sign. Mr. Papillon. Did you read it? Mac. No, I never read it neither. Mr. Papillon. Nor don't know what is in it? Mac. No, nor don't know the contents of it. Mr. Papillon. My lord, in that petition they say, they were tempted to swear against their consciences, and, that some of the witnesses had made shipwreck of their consciences; we ask them now, and they say, they do not know what was in the petition: If we should ask them who tempted them, and who those wit nesses were, that made shipwreck of their consciences; it would signity nothing; for since they do not know what was in the petition, it is in vain to ask them any more. Mac. For my part, my lord, I never saw it till it was brought to me to be signed, and do not know the contents of it: But I heard Mr. Colledge, that was executed at Oford, was concerned in promoting the petition, by my lord Shaftesbury's advice. Dennis Macnamarra. Mr. Papillon. Dennis Macnamarra, tell us Mr. Papillon. What, he that was here last? Mr. Papiton. He introduced you? Mr. Papillon. When was it? D. Muc. It was in March last; the latter end of March or the beginning of April. Mr. Papillon. Cannot you tell which of the months? |