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him. I was with bim another time after I the witnesses that were concerned in the Pomade this Narrative, and he told me thetwo Mr. pish Piot; after my lord went to Oxford, I writ Godfreys were with the king at Windsor, and him a letter, giving his lordship, to understand, begged a pardon of his majesty for me, but the that whereas his lordship was pleased to proking would not grant it, but it he be an honest mise, that he would take care of the witnesses, man, let him die at niy mercy, let him come that he would be pleased to take care of me, in and declare what he knows. Said I, I would as well as the rest of the witnesses ; after my not have your lordship expose my cause in these lord came home from Oxford, I went to him, days. This is the best time for it in the world, to see what was done. His lordship was pleasays he, if he doth not do it, he cannot expect sed to express himself and say that the king to be long king of England. Pray, my lord, was popishly affected and did adhere to popery, said I, what shall I do in the mean time? I and that he took the same methods that his will go beyond sea, said I. No, says he, do father before him took, which brought his fanot leave the kingdom, he dares as well be ther's head to the block, and we will also bring hanged as meddle with you. I desired bim a his thither ; and told me also, that he told second time not to expose me to the king's fury, some persons of quality, that this would fall and I prayed him to help me to a little money out five years before ; at the same time my to go beyond sea, for I was sure I could not be lord told me, that there was a collection of sate in England. Says he, have a care of your money made, and that the meeting was at the self'; but, says he, he dares as well be hanged | Sun tavern, and that there came a Tory Lord as meddle with you. Then I was in close con- in to hinder their proceedings, but say she, wo ference with him one day, and I gave him so do remove to Ironmonger-Lane, and

says he, exact an account of all transactions from king you shall hear further in a fortnight. I Charles the First's reign, the commencement my lord a fortnight afterwards, and his lordor coming to the crown, to this very day, that ship was pleased to tell me, that there was prohe was mightily satisfied ; finding by me that vision made for the witnesses, and that it was I was a traveller, be was mightily pleased, and in the hand ofone Mr. Rowse, that was servant free with me. Pray, my lord, what model do to sir Thomas Player; there was one Mr. Iry, you take, or intend to do? Says he, do you and I think my brother was by too, when his not think but there are families in England that lordship spake these words : He said that the have as great pretences to the crown as the king was à faithless man, that there was no king ? Says he, there is the duke of Bucks, in credit to be given to him, and that the duchess the right of his mother, she was descended from of Mazarine was his cabinet council, who was Edward, one of the Edwards, and in her right the first of womankind. This is all that I he claims the barony of Ross, he hath as great have to say, my lord. a right to the crown of England, as ever any

Sir Fr. Withens. Do you remember nothing Stuart of them all.

at any other time ?--J. Macnamarru. No. Jury. Speak that again.

Sii Fr. Withens. Did you hear any thing Haines. I was in conference with my lord about deposing the king ? Shaftesbury one day, and I gave him an exact J. Macnumarru. Yes, he did at the same time account of all transactions, and I asked what say, the king deserved to be deposed as much they did intend to do with the government, if as ever king Richard the second did. they pulled the king down. Says he, do you

Dennis Macnamarra. think there are no families in England, that have as much pretence to the crown as any of Mr. Saunders. Tell these gentlemen whether the Stuarts ? I know none, my lord. Says you have had any discourse with the earl of he, there is the duke of Bucks, that is descend- Shaftesbury. ed of the family of the Plantagenets; he named D. Mucnamurru. He said, my lord, that some of the Edwards, in her right he should the king was a man that ought not to be behave the barony of Ross, and in her right he lieved, and there was no belief in him, and that has as good a tiile to the crown of England as he ought to be deposed as well as king Richever any Stuart had.

ard the second, and that the duchess of Maza. John Macnamarra sworn.

rine was one of his cabinet council, and that he

did nothing but by her advice. Sir Fr. Withens. Pray give an account to Sir Fr. Withens. Begin again. the Jury of what discourses you had with my L. C. J. Raise your voice a little, for the

Jury do not hear you. Macnumarru. My lord, I was with

lord Ď. Mucnamurra. That the king is a mán Shaftesbury a little before he went to Oxford, that ought not to be believed that there was before the parliament sat there, and my lord no belief in him, and that he ought to be depotold me at that time, that he would take care, sed as well as king Richard the second, and together with those that were with him at Ox- that the duchess of Mazarine was his cabinet ford,

for the witnesses that where concerned in council, and that he did nothing but by her Hurrison. Speak out, pray, Sir.

L. C. J. Who was with you at that time? Macnamarra. My lord told me be would D. Macnamarra. There was Mr. Ivy and takortire, with those that were with him, for my

brother at his own house.

lord Shaftesbury.

my

the Popish Plot.

consent.

L. C. J. When was this?

Bernard Dennis sworn.
D. Macnumarra. It was at the latter end of
March or the beginning of April.

Sir F. Withens. Pray tell the jury what disSir F. Withens. You say Mr. Ivy was by at course you had with the earl of Shaftesbury at the same time?

any time, and what it was. D. Macnamarra. Yes.

B. Dennis. My lord, I came upon a design Sir F. Withens. Call Mr. Ivy.

to make clear the plot in general, as far as I Jury. What p'ace was it in?

have travelled, as in Ireland, France, Spain, D. Mac numarra. In his own house.

Maryland, Virginia and England, and upon Eduard Ivy sworn.

that account I was brought before a justice of

the peace in Westminster, November last, this Ivy. My lord, soon after the parliament was time twelvemonth, and exantined before justice dissolved at Oxford, I was at my lord Shaftes- Warcup, a justice of the peace, and from bury's house, where he was speaking against thence to the committee of the House of Comthe king, and said, that he was an unjust man, mons, of whom colonel Birch (I believe he is and unfit to reign, and that he was a Papist in here) was chairman, and gave in my evidence, his heart, and would introduce popery. and being called upon at the trial of the earl of Jury. Say that again.

Stafford, I was commended, as I suppose to Iny. I tell you I was at my lord Shaftes- the earl of Shaftesbury, and upon the acbury's house, where he was then speaking count he sent me word of it, by William Hetheragainst the king, saying, that he was altogether ington, who was then very intimate with the unjust, and not fit to reign, and he wondered earl of Shaftesbury, to my knowledge ; and he did not take example by his father before William Hetherington came to me several him, and did really believe that he was a Pa- times, and he precisely was my maintainer at pist in bis heart, and intended to introduce that time, that is, to find me whatever I wanted, Popery. I was sometimes afier with him, and and provide me my lodging, and carry me to I told him one Haines had told me he had some place where accomodation might be more something to discover about the death of sir better for me. Upon this account one time the Edmundbury Godfrey, and several other earl of Shaftesbury sent to me desiring that I things, and my lord desired to see him, and I would wait upon him at his own house. I brought Mr. Haines, to his house, and he de- came to him, and there in the gallery of his sired him that what he had to say he would own house, walking very slowly, he told me what put in writing, and he should have a pardon, 1 gave in of the plot in general was very good and that if the king did deny it, as he dares and sufficient, but as to the queen and the duke not deny it, but if be does, we will rise upon of York, that I should speak more home and him and force him.

positive against them; at least, that I might Sir F. Withens. Had you any other discourse be a corroboration to others in what they swore at other times ?

against them. This was all at that present Ivy. Yes, I had other discourse, but not to time, that the earl of Shaftesbury spake to me, this purpose.

and he desired me to go home to his lodgings Sir E. Withens. Was you frequently with With that I went home, and within a month, it him ?

maybe, or thereabouts, he sent for me again, Ivy. I was frequently with him; he desired by the same William Hetberington, and Wa. at the time I was with him to bid Colledge to liam Hetherington told me, that the earl of come to him, and I went and came again to Shaftesbury would speak with me. So I came Haines with instructions how to proceed, and I and waited apon his lordship at his own house, took his examination of him, and carried it to and says he, Mr. Dennis, I understand that my lord, and he desired it might be explained you are a clergyman. Yes, my lord, said I. what he meant by the tall black man; and, And, says he, I would advise you to take a says he, if he does mean the king, he must ex- black gown, and I will prefer you to a benefice, plain himself, and speak of the king, or of the till such time as this business is over; and, duke of York, or the rest ; and if he does, we says he, at the end of this business I will not will take care of him as long as he lives; but fail to prefer you to a better, and in the mean unless he does, we will do nothing for bim : time I would advise you to take a black gown; And I was with him with my lord Shattes and this was a little as I remember, after the bury, and my lord Shaftesbury did exclaim parliairent was dissolved at Oxford ; and be against the king:

sent a gentleman out of his own house along Sir F. Withens. What words did be speak? with me, to a Doctor of Divinity living hard by

Ivy. He said he was alogether an unjust Lincoln's-Inn-Fields, Dr. Burnet by name, as man, and not fit to reign, and that he believed I remember, and the gentleman acquainted he was a Papist in his heart, and designed to the Doctor what I was, and about what occaintroduce Popery, and therefore they designed sion I came there ; so the Doctor indeed disto depose him, and set up another in his stead. coursed with me very familiarly, and rendered

Sir F. Withens. Do you remember any dis- thanks to the earl for recommending ne into course of Richard the Second at that time? his conversation rather than another's. What

Ivy. No, Sir, I do not remember any thing discourse we had then was nothing to the matof it.

ter, it was about matters of conscience and religion. But Mr. Colledge, that was the Joiner : destruction; and, says he, if you had been here in town, and executed afterwards, being under a commonwealth, the commonwealth familiar with me, brought me to one Mr. would take more pity of your nation, and the Ferguson a minister, as I suppose of the gentry of your nativn, than any of them do Presbyterian form, for he goes in their garb as now, in this time wherein the king governs, near as I can tell, and Mr. Ferguson at our and upon this I do count the Irish fools. This first meeting was in Richard's coffee-house, is all that I can say in an upper room one pair of stairs, and in some L. C. J. The king's counsel declare they company; and Colledge going to him brought will call no more witnesses, for they think they him aside, and spake to him concerning me, and have called enough already, and there are he came to me apart, and discoursed with me: several of them that do swear words that are From whence he brought me to a bookseller's treasonable in themselves, if you do desire to shop, and bought for me the articles of the ask any of the witnesses any thing, you shall church of England, and in all these discourses have them all called one by one. there was a band, as Colledge told me, of the Forcmun. My lord, we will walk up again, earl of Shaftesbury, who did procure him, and and consider what questions to ask, and come seat to Dr. Burnet to bring me that way. I again presently. do not deny neither, that I had an inclination Mr. Papillon. It seems they will call no before I left Ireland, and when I was in Spain, more witnesses than these. and when I was in France, for to become a L. C. J. Not against the earl of Shaftesprotestant, according to the laws and rules of bury, belng you are charged only with that. the church of England. The force of what I Mr. Pupillon. It is so; my lord, but we pray have to say is this, The earl of Shaftesbury we may be satisfied about the statute upon one day after all these things were past, and which the indictment is grounded, and that we after the parliament were dissolved at Oxford, may hear it read before we go up, because discoursing with me in his own house, major your lordship speaks of two different statutes, Manly being in the same room then, who lives the 25th of Edward, and you mention the beyond Tower-hill, he asked me what was the statute of the 13th of this king ; your lordship present occasion I came to him there? And it in your discourse to the jury mentioned them was pretiy early in the morning, and the earl both, we pray your lordship to acquaint us had a barber to trim him in his room. I told upon what statute it is grounded, whether him my occasion was then, that I was some- upon both or one of them. thing low in money, that I did a little want L. C. J. Look ye, gentlemen, this is groundmoney at that time, and did not know to ed upon the statute of this king, though there whom to speak for any thing but his lord is enough to find an indictment of treason upon ship, and said, I came to tell you so. Well, the statute of the 25th of Edward the third. said he, Mr. Dennis, I have appointed Mr. That which is treason within the statute of the Rowse, John Rowse, whom you know, for to 25th of Edward the third, is treason within give you and maintain you in money ; go to this statute, so this is the more copious statute; him especially once a week, and he will give for as I told you before, this statute has enyou money, and said he, Mr. Dennis, what is larged that of Edward the third in a great the number of your name in the country, as many particulars; and therefore, look ye, near as you can tell

, how many are you ?" My gentlemen, always consider this, when one lord, said I, to tell you exactly what number statute contains the matter of another, and enthey be of,' I cannot at present, but within a larges it, the indictment is always upon the little time I may tell you. I believe really last statute, that being the more copious stathere may be upon the matter 3 or 400 able tute : But you are to consider both. men of my name, in the county where I was L. C. J. North. The indictment is contra boru. Says the earl of Shaftesbury, Mr. formam stutuť, and it being contra formam Dennis, I would very willingly have you ad- "statul', it may be understood, stulutorum or vise those of your name, and those of your statuti

, so that all statutes that may be the friends for to be in readiness, whenever occa- foundation of this indictment you may go sion shall serve, and to stand by, if occasion upon. should be, for to assist the commonwealth of Jury. We desire to know whether any of England; for we do really intend to have these witnesses stand indicted, or no ? England under a commonwealth and no crown; L. C. J. Look you, gentlemen, don't talk and, says he, we intend to live as we see Hol- of this, but consider with yourselves, an exaland does; that is, to have a commonwealth mination of proofs concerning the credibility and to have no supreme head, particular man, of the witnesses is not properly before you at, says be, or king, nor owe obedience to a this time; for I must tell you, and inform crown; and, says he, we will extirpate the you as to that, you are not to examine proper. king, and all his family as near as we can; ly here concerning the credibility of the wit. and Mr. Dennis, says he, 1 do admire that nesses, that is not to be proved or controverted your nation should be such fools as they are, here before you, that is matter upon a trial by for it is very certain that king James, queen the petty jury, for there the king will be heard Elizabeth

, king Charles the first, says he, and for to defend the credit of his witnesses, if tbe king that now is, does wrong you to 'very there

be any thing that can be objected against 3 F

VOL. VIII,

such cases,

them; it is proper for the prisoner to do that, Gwyn. My lord, it was certainly there, for

you are only to see whether the statute be there I found it. I do not know the particular satisfied, in having matter that is treasonable, paper, but all the papers in that bag wero and having it witnessed by two men, hy two there. witnesses, who are intended prima facie cre- L.C. J. From whom had you the key? dible, unless you of your own knowledge know Gwyn. From my lord Shaftesbury: the contrary; for otherwise, you must con- Forcman. Do not you know, Sir, there was sider what a disadvantage this would be in all a discourse in the parliament of an Associa

if the credibility of the witnesses tion ? should be examined before the grand jury, Gwyn. Sir, I was not of the last parliawhere the king is not present, nor in a possi- ment. Sir, I know nothing of it. bility of defending the credit of his witnesses ; Foreman. You have not heard then, that nor is the prisoner or the party indicted pre- there was such a thing in parliament concern. sent; that is a proper objection when he comes ing an Association ? upon his trial ; for all men are intended cre- Gwyn. I have heard of an Association dible, till there are objections against them, talked of. and till their credits come to be examined one Foreman. Mr. Secretary, I would ask you side and the other.

some questions : If you did not know of a de Mr. Papillon. My lord, if your lordship bate in parliament of an Association ? thinks good, I will beg this; I desire your Secretary. I was not present at the debate ; Jordship’s pardon, whether your lordship doth but there was a talk in town of an Association

. not think that we are within the compass of Foreman. Did not you hear of it in parliaour own understanding and consciences to ment ? give our judgment?

Secretary. Indeed there was an answer to a L. C. J. Your own understanding and con- message from the House of Commons that had sciences, yes; but look ye, gentlemen- something in it that did strongly imply an As

-Mr. Papillon. If we are not left to consider sociation; but this particular Association I do the credibility of the witnesses, we cannot sa- not remember to have heard proposed. tisfy our consciences.

Foreman. Do not you remember in the L. C. J. Look ye, gentlemen, you are to House of Commons, Sir, it was read upon ocgo according to the evidence of the witnesses; casion of that bill? you are to consider of the case according to Secretary. I heard such a thing spoke of; the things alledged and proved, unless you but at the reading of it I was not present, to know any thing yourselves : But if any of the best of my remembrance. you know any thing of your own knowledge, Forcman. What date, Sir, was the warrant hat you ought to take into consideration, no for

my lórd Shaftesbury's commitment? doubt of it.

Secretary. I refer myself to the warrant, Jury. Very well, my lord.

for that I do not know the date. L. Č. J. The Grand Jury are to hear no- L. C. J. Mr. Secretary, you must speak thing, but the evidence against the prisoner ; about the time that it was. therefore for you to enter into proofs, or expect Secretary. I was the man that had the any here, concerning the credit of the wit- honour to sign that warrant by which the Sernesses, it is impossible for you to do justice at jeant at Arms did apprehend my lord Shaftesthat rate.

bury, but what day of the month I do not reThe Jury withdrew, and the Court adjourned member ; and therefore I refer myself, if you till three o'clock.

please, to the warrant, and to the Serjeant af

Arms.
L. C. J. Let the witnesses be brought in Foreman. What month was it!
One by one.

Secretary. Sir.
Foremụn. We will first ask a question of Mr. Foreman. About what month !

Secretary. July.
Foreman. Who put up the papers ?

Foreman. The beginning of July! Gwyn. I put up the papers myself.

Secretary. Sir, I do not remember the day Foreman. Who went in with you?

precisely, for I did not foresee that question Gwyn. None but my lord's servants, I would be asked me; but I refer myself to the think, were there : But I put up the papers warrant, and that is beyond all doubt. myself.

Foreman. I suppose all these witnesses that Foreman. Pray, Sir, whose hand writing is are examined, were examined before the Compaper of?

mittee? Gwyn. Indeed, Sir, I cannot tell.

Secretary. Sir, they were examined, and I Foremun. How did it come into my lord was present at the examination. Shaftesbury's closet ?

Foreman. All of them? Gwyn. My lord, this is a strange question. Secretary. I do not know whether all of Indeed, Sir, I cannot tell; all the papers that them; but I am sure I was at the examination I found in that closet I put into that bag. of several of them.

DC.J. To satisfy the jury, was the paper Foreman. How many, Sir ? 1 tbe closet before you came there?

Secretary. I cannot tell truly how many

Gwyn.

that

Foreman. Call Mr. Booth.

Foreman. Did he talk to this purpose every Oficer. He is not here, the tipstaff has him time? somewhere.

Booth. Something to this purpose he did Foreman. Is that witness a prisoner! talk every time, but not so fully; for I was L. C. J. Booth is a prisoner.

first acquainted with this business of Oxford by Foreman. Then call Mr. Turbervile. captain Wilkinson, and I had a great desire to Mr. Papillon. Is Mr. Turbervile there? understand it from my lord's own mouth, be, Officer. Here is Mr. Booth come now, cause I would be satisfied in my lord's interest Mr. Godfrey. Put Turbervile out again. as well as his conduct.

Foreman. Mr. Booth, you told me, of a dis- Foreman. Pray, Sir, what education have course that passed between the lord Shaftesbury you had ? and yourself, we desire to know where it was, Booth. I have had the education of a genand when ?

tleman, an academical education, Booth. It was in Thanet-house, Sir, where Foremun. Were you ever in orders ? he lived, about a week or ten days before the Booth. Yes. parliament sat at Oxford.

Foreman. Do you own yourself to be in Foreman. The precise time ?

orders still? Booth. I cannot be more precise.

Booth. How do you mean to be in orders ? Foreman. Who introduced you?

I tell you I was in orders; but I am not now Booth. I think one Mr. Wilson led me into beneficed. the chamber.

Foreman. Do you officiate as a minister ? Foreman. Who was present when the dis- Booth. No. Bourse was ?

Foreman. Were you ever an attorney's Booth. None but he and I, Sir.

clerk ?-Booth. Never. L. C. J. If we have these noises, we will Foreman. Or a justice's clerk ? have every one of you put out of court.

Booth. Never, nor to no mortal. Att. Gen. Richardson, Richardson, pray Foreman. Were you ever indicted for fe. turn them all out; they are brought in on lony ?-Booth. No.. purpose.

L. C. J. That is a question not to be asked Booth. It was not the first, second, nor by any juryman of any witness whatsoever : third time that I had waited upon the lord of no man is bound to discover any thing of that Shaftesbury.

ture, that is criminal, concerning himself. Foreman. In what room was it that my lord Foreman. Ifit be pardoned, my lord, he may. spake those words to you?

L. C. J. Pardoned or not pardoned, he is Booth. It was in the room he usually sits not bound to accuse himself, nor to fix a scanin, on the left-hand as we came out of the long dal on himself. gallery, I think we passed through a room be- Booth. No, my lord, • Nemo tenetur seipsum fore it, wainscotted about,'as I remember, and prodere.' hung. I have been in that rooin with him four L. C. J. Sir, we must not suffer such ques.. or five times, I am sure.

tions; I will tell you the reason: it is proper Foreman. After this discourse with you, for a prisoner that stands upon his justification how long was it before you spake of it to any to object it, but then the prisoner must prove body else?

it: it lies upon him to prove it. Booth. Truly I think I did not publish this Mr. Pupillon. Mr. Booth, you told us of discourse that my lord and I had, from the 50 men that were listed under captain Wilkin., time it was, till within this seven or eight son, do you know any more of them?

Booth. I never directly conversed with any. Foreman. You were never examined before other. then as a witness ?

Mr. Papillon. Did you know

any

more of Booth. No, Sir, I never was, nor no body them? will pretend it, I suppose.

Booth. No, not directly I did not, but only Foreman, To whom, Sir, did you give your by captain Wilkinson's information.

Mr. Papillon. How many stories was that Booth. Sir, I sent my, first information in room where you

talked with my lord ? writing to the lords in the council.

Booth. One pair of stairs, as I remember. Foreman. By whose hand ?

Mr. Godfrey. Was it the right-hand as you Booth. By the hand of Walter Banes. came in? - Booth. I think so.

Foreman. You had several discourses with Mr. Godfrey. Was it the right-hand or the, i him; had you easy admission, or was it with left ? difficulty you came into his company?

Booth. I went into the long gallery first Booth. I was admitted by the influence of and staid there about a quarter, or half an captain Wilkinson at first, and ever after went hour ; and I remember very well I looked with him, and liad easy admittance and fami- upon some maps that were there, to divert liarity with him.

myself a while; and when I was called in, Foreman. Was be with you every time? went out of the gallery on the left-hand, and Booth. No, not every time; he was not went through another room before I came into

weeks,

first information ?

my lord's room.

This time witb me.

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