Hedid insist upon a great many matters in law, and had the books there himself. Coll. I am wholly ignorant of the law, my lord. Serj. Jefferies. Your lordships are the judges of the law in this case. The question here in short is, whether the prisoner be Guilty or Not Guilty, and that being demanded of him by the court, if he refuses, let him take the consequence of it. Coll. What is that, pray, sir George? Att. Gen. Judgment of High-Treason. For if a person stand mute, and will not plead to an Indictment of High Treason, the common judgment of pressing to death must not pass upon him, but an attainder of High Treason. Coll. Well, if it be so, I cannot help it. I thank God, I am innocent of any treason, or any such thing. L. C. J. Why don't you plead Not Guilty, then? Coll. I do not refuse to plead, I am willing to plead with all my heart, if I may have my right. Just. Jones. If you do not plead, you refuse to plead. Coll. Pray, my lord, let me have my papers. Att. Gen. Pray give the court an account, where had you those papers? L. C. J. Nay we will not enter into any examination of that matter now, Mr. Attorney; he can have no use of papers to see whether he should plead Guilty or Not Guilty. Serj. Jefferies. We know nothing of those papers, we desire that he may answer to the question shortly, whether he be Guilty or Not Guilty; if not, we pray your lordship's judg ment. Coll. I had them not all from one person, they were received from my own hands, some of them in the Tower; and being brought back to me, they were taken from me to day; let me have but one of them: the paper of instructions in point of law, that I may know what is my right: I would not throw away my life, if I have any thing that is my right that can preserve it. LC. J. You are to give a plain answer, whether you are Guilty or Not Guilty, now for that you have no use of papers: for you can best tell whether you be guilty or not. If you can propose any matter of law that you can have to plead, do it. Coll. If I have any plea, that I may plead besides Not Guilty, I desire I may. have my papers to consider of it, and that I may have counsel assigned me. L. C. J. If you have any such plea, tell us the matter and substance of it. Coll. I do not know what really are matters of law; if I had those instructions that are in my papers, I could give you a direct answer presently, L. C.J. You ought not to have any advice to decline your trial: when you propose matter of law yourself, you may have advice upon it. VOL. VIII. But you ought not to have advice to decline your trial before-hand. Cl. of the Cr. Are you Guilty or not Guilty? Coll. Mr. Attorney, pray let me have a copy of the indictment. Att. Gen. Apply yourself to the court for it, we must receive our directions from thence. L. C. J. You have had the opinion of the court, you can't have it. Just. Levinz. You have been told nothing can be received from you, but a plea of Guilty or Not Guilty, and the court have given you their opinion, and that you cannot have a copy of the indictment, nor counsel assigned you, till you offer something for them to be assigned upon. L. C. J. And that was it which was done in the King's bench in the case of Fitzharris, which I suppose you meant when you speak of the judges opinions. Just. Jones. Nothing was done there till he himself assigned the matter in law that he would plead, and then counsel was assigned him. Serj. Jefferies. Mr. Colledge was in the court at that time, and can tell what was done. L. C. J. If you desire the indictment read over again distinctly, that you may have. Att. Gen. Ay, with all my heart. Coll. Pray let me hear it again, my lord, if you please. L. C. J. Read it over again to him, and read it distinctly. Cl. of the Cr. Thou art indicted by the name of Stephen Colledge, late of Oxon, in the county of Oxon, carpenter, as a false traitor. Coll. I have observed one thing already, my lord, I pray I may have pen and ink. L. C. J. Ay, give him pen and ink, let him make what observations he can. Then the Clerk read the Indictment through. Cl. of Cr. Art thou Guilty of this HighTreason, or Not Guilty? Coll. This Indictment, if I understand it, says, there was a plot and conspiracy by me and others; now I know when my lord Stafford was tried, they did proceed to prove, first, that there was such a plot, and then that my lord was guilty of it; first, that there was such a conspiracy by the papists, is it not requisite they should first prove such a plot, and conspiracy there was, before they go to prove me guilty of it? Just. Jones. What before you have pleaded? L. C. J. When you have pleaded, the next thing is to try you, and to give the evidence; but what way the king's counsel will take to manage your trial, that we can't tell. Just. Jones. But they are not to be directed by you, Mr. Colledge. Coll. It was so done, I say, in my lord Stafford's case. L. C. J. He pleaded first, however, you have not yet pleaded. Cl. of Cr. Are you Guilty or Not Guilty? L. C. J. Do not trifle any longer, it is 2 P Just. Jones. We have declared our opinion already, that you have no right to have any solicitor or council, till matter of law do arise. Coll. Is it your lordship's opinion, that I have no plea in law? Just. Jones. Have you no plea in law ? L. C. J. He would have our judgment, whether there be any or no. Just. Jones, You yourself know best; we know nothing you have to plead. Coll. I cannot, unless I have counsel and my papers. L. C. J. There does nothing apppear to us. L. C.J. Then plead Not Guilty, that is a ready plea. Just. Jones. You have had our opinion over and over again. You have as much counsel as is allowed in these cases, for every man is best judge of his own case, what to plead whether Guilty or Not Guilty: You have had as fair play as ever any man had. Att. Gen. Mr. Colledge has said, he knows of no plea in law he has, and therefore there is none; for de non apparentibus et non existen'tibus,' the reason is the same. L. C. J. In matter of fact, there is no plea, but Not Guilty, Coll. The court are judges in matter of law, and they are my counsel. Just. Jones. And the court have all of them declared, they know of nothing in law that you have to plead. Coll. Is not counsel to be allowed to one under my circumstances? L. C. J. If you have any thing for counsel to be assigned upon, you shall have them. Coll. If I am ignorant of that, and cannot propose it, shall I not have the assistance of counsel? Just. Jones. No, we have told you the law plainly, and that which is frequent in practice in like cases, and you must be contented with the same measure. Serj. Jefferies. If Mr. Colledge have such a thing as a solicitor, I shall crave leave to put that solicitor in mind of the case of one that was indicted of High-Treason. Att. Gen. We shall talk of that by-and-by. L. C. J. The same methods are used in our case, as are in all cases of the like nature, as far as my knowledge reacheth. Coll. If I have a right to the law, I must not lose it for my own ignorance of the law; but if you deny me both my counsel and my papers, you take away the means of my com ing to that right, and make me uncapable of making my defence. L. Č. J. You have been told you must plead before you do any thing. Coll. This is the person (pointing to a person by him) that had the papers. Be pleased to command him, that I may have them again: He said, he had orders to take them from me, and bring them to your lordship. L. C. J. I know of no use you could have of any papers, to plead Guilty or Not Guilty. Sol. Gen. If there be in those papers advice in matters of law, that you have been told you ought not to have, till the court has assigned you counsel to give you advice. Coll. Then if there be a right in law, and a privilege which I ought to have, I must lose it by my being ignorant of it, and have no one to advise me about it neither. L. C. J. You may propose it, if you have any, if not, you must plead to the indictment. Serj. Jefferies. My lord, it has not been usual for us, that are of the king's counsel, to enter into dialogues with prisoners at the bar. The first thing that is to be done in such cases, is for the prisoner to plead Guilty or Not Guilty, or to offer something to the court that may be a matter in law fit to be debated; and this we pray may be done in this case, and that the pri soner may plead presently, or else we desire your judgment. Coll. Pray let me have my papers again, my lord. L. C. J. You go in a circle, and run round from one thing to another, and will receive no answer. We have told you our opinion, and we must tell you, though you hold long dis courses, yet you will be judged lost and mute, if you plead not a legal plea: Therefore you must plead Guilty or Not Guilty, or offer something that may be a plea in law, and then you shall have the assistance of counsel, but you must have none till then. Coll. But shall not have my papers, my lord? L. C. J. We know nothing of them. Coll. Pray, my lord, order the man to give them to me, that took them from me. L. C. J. We will order no such thing. He may be a criminal perhaps that did give them you at first; but when you pleaded, we will hear any motion you will make about them. Coll. It may be I ought to plead, that words were spoken in another place than the place laid in the indictment. L. C. J. You will not need to plead any such thing; for if there be nothing proved of treason that you said or did in Oxfordshire, you must be found Not Guilty. Coll. Here is another thing, my lord, I am indicted by the name of Colledge, carpenter. L. C. J. What then? Coll. I am not a carpenter, but a joiner; is that any bar to it? L. C. J. The addition signifies nothing, I do not know any difference betwixt a carpenter and a joiner in law. Just. Jones. They might have indicted you by the name of labourer, and it had been good. Coll. Pray, my lord, either give me my papers or assign me counsel, or else I may throw away my life, for I am wholly ignorant of the law. L. C. J. When you have pleaded, we will hear any motion you will make, and do that which is just upon it; but I see no use you can have of papers to plead Guilty or Not Guilty, which is the only question is asked you. Cl. of Cr. Are you Guilty or Not Guilty? Call. Will you promise me, my lord, there shall no advantage be taken against me, if I do plead so? you. L. C. J. We will make no bargains with Plead as you ought by law to do. Coll. If matters of law arise, shall I have counsel to speak to them? Just. Jones. Yes, you shall, you need not doubt it. Propose any matter now fit to be argued, and you shall have counsel to it. Coll. I am not capable of doing it. I know not when I have any right. Just. Jones. The court is of counsel to you. Coll. If you are my counsel, then have I any plea in law to make? Just. Jones. You have heard the indictment read, what say you? For you must propose the matter. L. C. J. We know of none but Guilty or Not Guilty; if you can tell any, do. Coll. I pray I may have my papers again; if there be no other plea for me, pray let me have my papers again. L. C. J. You have heard the opinion of the court, you must plead. Att. Gen. Certainly, Mr. Colledge, you cannot be guilty of these things, you need not to scruple it, to plead Not Guilty, sure. Coll. My lord, having been kept a prisoner as I have been, without pen, ink, or paper, no conversation with my friends, or knowledge of the fact, and being ignorant of the law, not knowing where I have a right, nor when I have a right, if you do force me upon this plea, and it cost me my life, at your doors lie it. Just. Jones. You will lose your life if you do not plead; if you plead Not Guilty, and are not proved Guilty, you will save your life by this plea. Coll, I am willing to plead what the law requires of me to plead, and if I have right in law, I would not lose it. Cl. of Cr. Are you Guilty or Not Guilty? Coll. Why then as they have laid it in that indictment, in manner and form as it is there laid, I am Not Guilty? Cl. of Cr. Culprit, by whom wilt thou be tried? Coll. By God and my country. Cl. of Cr. God send thee a good deliverance. Just. Jones. Not Guilty is his plea. L. C. J. Now he has pleaded, Mr. Attorney; he speaks of some papers, if there be any memorandums, or any thing that must assist him that is necessary for his defence in his trial in those papers, it will be hard to deny him them. Att. Gen. If your lordships please to give me leave, I will give you an account of them. The messengers just now did deliver these papers to be delivered to the court. Coll. Pray speak out, Mr. Attorney, and let me hear. Att. Gen. When he came to prison he had none, but Mr. Aaron Smith, the messenger informed me, did deliver them to him. in? L. C. J. Whose hand-writing are the papers Coll. He received them from me in the Tower. Just. Jones. You received them from him first.-Coll. No. Att. Gen. What were the papers you delivered to him in the Tower? Coll. The three pieces joined together that contains directions how to govern myself; there is another to the same purpose, which instructs me to demand a copy of the indictment, and of the pannel of the jury, and those were instructions to tell me what the law allows me. Att. Gen. Here is a speech made for you that begins thus: Before you speak, speak to this purpose.' Pray, my lord, I desire that may be examined, and Mr. Smith may be called to give an account how he came to give the prisoner those papers; for here are abundance of niceties proposed for him to move, and there will be a strange sort of proceedings at this rate, if men go about to espouse the cause of traitors. Coll. I am no traitor, Mr. Attorney. son. Coll. That is by a Grand Jury made up that morning, as I am informed. Att. Gen. Here is a list of the names of several men of the county returned to be of the jury, and particular marks set upon them, who are good men, and who bad men, and who moderate men. Coll. Ought I not to have that paper, my lord? Att. Gen. No, I hope not. L. C. J. Whether they are material, or not material, if we should judge them not material for his defence, yet it would look like an hard point upon the prisoner; and to deliver them into an hand that they may be carried away or stifled, in case there were a crime in the delivering of them, that would not do well on the other side: therefore I would have these papers put into some safe hands, that what may be for the prisoner's use he may not want, and yet they may not be taken away, if there be occasion to use them upon another account. Att. Gen. But if it please your lordship, I desire you would enter into the examination of this matter; for I have an account from London by a special messenger, that there are several persons go up and down to procure witnesses against the king's evidence, making it a public cause; and here, my lord, is another paper which is a list of men as witnesses picked up together against the king's witnesses. L. C. J. He must have that, deliver him that presently. Att. Gen. But, my Lords, others have about and framed witnesses for him. gone L. C. J. You must give him the list of his witnesses, for I see not what use you can make of it. L. C. J. We have read enough of this to suppress it, and to examine how this came to his hands. Just. Jones. Where is Aaron Smith ? Att. Gen. My lord, here is another that is worse than that, charging the justice of the nation. Pray call Mr. Aaron Smith, and Mr. Henry Starkey. Mr. Smith appeared. Att. Gen. Mr. Smith, did you deliver these two papers to the prisoner? Smith. Does any body accuse me that I did? me. Att. Gen. That will be done. L. C. J. Look you, we will not interrupt the trial with it. Mr. Smith must be taken into safe custody, only to secure him till we can examine it, not as charged with any crime, but only that he may be forthcoming to be examined. Serj. Jefferies. This no man will oppose sure, if any thing that is delivered to him be fit to be delivered, the person that delivers it must Att. Gen. You do not make a direct ancome and own it; but before any person de-swer, Mr. Smith, in the case, it will be proved livers any papers to the prisoner, for him to make use of against the king's evidence, we desire to know what those papers mean, and who gave them. L. C. J. Look you, brother, we will have nothing of heat till the trial be over, when that is over, if there be any thing that requires our examination, it will be proper for us to enter into the consideration of it. But in the mean while what hurt is there, if the papers be put into some trusty hands, that the prisoner may make the best use of them he can, and yet they remain ready to be produced upon occasion: if a man be speaking for his life, though he speak that which is not material, or nothing to there will be no harm to perinit the purpose, Att. Gen. If people are permitted to go up and down and ask counsel of persons, and bring it in papers to the prisoner, it is the same thing as if counsel came to him. Here is a busy solicitor, and he gets advice from counsel, and then he delivers it to the prisoner; it is the first of that kind certainly that ever was allowed; and if this be not to assign him counsel, I know not what is. L. C. J. What think you of our perusing the papers? Att. Gen. With all my heart, my lord. Coll. If you take away all helps from me, you had as good condemn me without a trial. Att. Gen. You ought not to have helps to plead dilatories. Coll. Not to help me to my right in law? Att. Gen. We are to go upon the fact now: and, my lord, I pray your judgment about them, when you have perused them. Then the Judges looked upon was called the Speech. that paper that upon you. Smith. Mr. Attorney, I know not what answer to make better than I have given; our law says no man is bound to accuse himself. Att. Gen. But our law says, you shall be examined. Smith. I come to give no informations here, Mr. Attorney; if I did I should be then examined. Att. Gen. Here are instructions given to the prisoner, they say you gave them. Smith. I desire to have it proved. L. C. J. Mr. Attorney, you will take a recognizance of Mr. Smith, to be forth-coming during this sessions. Smith. I will not depart, my lord, I assure you; and I hope Mr. Attorney will take my word. Att. Gen. Indeed I will not, Mr. Smith, because you have broken it with me already; when I gave you leave to go to the prison, I did not think you would have abused that kindness, to give him papers. L. C. J. Well, take his recognizance. Smith ? Smith. I said it not, meaning by it the Court, for I declare I abhor that expression to be so interpreted, that I reflected upon the Court. L. C. J. Why do you use such loose expressions then, Mr. Smith ? Smith. Because I have been threatened sinee I came to town, though I have not spoke one word in any public company since I came. Just. Jones. It seems you will reflect here in the face of the Court, and in the face of the country, upon the government, upon the justice of the kingdom. Smith. No, my lord, I have told you what I meant by it; I neither reflected upon the Court, nor upon the government, nor upon the justice of the kingdom. Coll. My lord, I desire I may have that, that has in the margin of it, the cases of Lil. L. C. J. You should have done well to have burne and Stafford. forborn such expressions as those were. Coll. Shall I not have the use of my papers, my lord will you not please to deliver them back to me now you have perused them? Just. Jones. One of them is a speech, and a most seditious libellous speech, to spit venom upon the government in the face of the country. We cannot tell who made it, but it seems to be beyond your capacity; and therefore we must enquire into it: but we do not think fit to let you have the use of that paper. L. C. J. For that which contains the names of the witnesses, that you have again: for the other matters, the instructions in point of law, if they had been written in the first person, in your own name, that we might believe it was your writing, it would have been something; but when it is written in the second person, you should do so and so, by which it appears to be written by another person, it is an ill precedent to permit such things; that were to give you counsel in an indirect way, which the law gives you not directly. Coll. If I am ignorant what questions to ask of the witnesses, shall not my friends help me, my lord? L. C. J. We will sift out the truth as well as we can, you need not fear it. Coll. Some of those things I took out of the books myself: and if you are resolved to take away all my helps, I cannot help it; I know not that Mr. Smith wrote one of those papers. Att Gen. But Mr. Smith would have given four guineas, it seems, as a bribe, to the gaoler, and he offered four more to let him have the liberty to come to him. Serj. Jeff. It is time indeed for Mr. Smith to have a care. Keeper. It was Mr. Starkey that offered me the four guineas. Att. Gen. Pray call Mr. Henry Starkey. (But he did not appear) Then the Court took a recognizance of 100!. of Mr. Smith to attend the Court during the session. Coll. Pray, my lord, let me have my papers delivered to me, I cannot make my defence else. L. C. J. We are your counsel in matter of fact, and to give you your papers were to assign you counsel against law, they being not your own papers, but coming from a third hand. Coll. Will you please to give me the paper that has the questions in it, to ask the witnesses? L. C. J. There are no papers with any particular questions to any one witness, but only instructions how to carry yourself in this case. Coll. A great deal of it is my own, my lord. L. C. J. Mr. Attorney, truly I think, that which does not contain matter of scandal, may be transcribed and given to the prisoner. Just. Jones. You shall not have the instructions to scandalize the government, all that is necessary for your defence, you shall have. L. C. J. If he had writ it himself. I cannot well see how you could take it from him; and truly as it is, I had rather let him have too much than too little. Coll. My lord, I thought I might have had counsel to have assisted me, but if I may have counsel neither before my plea nor after, I that am an ignorant may be lost by it, but cannot help it. L. C. J. If matter of law arise, you shall have counsel to it. Coll. I know not but it might have admitted of an argument, that which, if I had had my papers, I should have offered to you. L. C. J. Mr. Colledge, we shall not go any farther now, I know not how many witnesses will be produced either of one side or another, but it is too late to go on this morning, and because we attend here only upon this occasion, we shall go on with the trial at two o'clock in the afternoon. Coll. My lord, will you be pleased to order the papers for me to peruse in the meantime. L. C. J. We have ordered that you shall have a transcript of the paper of instructions, leaving out that which is scandalous. Coll. I desire I may have a copy of the whole. Just. Jones. No, we do not think fit to do that. Coll. Pray let me know which you do except against. L. C. J. Look you, Mr. Attorney, I think we may let him have a copy of the whole. Att. Gen. My lord, before you rise, I desire you would be pleased to take the examination of Mr. Gregory about Mr. Starkey. L. C. J. Swear him. (Which was done.) Att. Gen. What do you know concerning Mr. Starkey, and what did he offer you? Gregory. When they came by your lordship's permission to Mr. Colledge, they brought some papers which they delivered to him: and afterwards Mr. Starkey took me aside, and told me, it was hard usage that the prisoner could not have his counsel permitted to come to him: do him what favour you can, and I shall not be ungrateful; so he clapped four guineas in my hand, but I immediately laid them down upon the table, and would not take them. Att. Gen. My lord, I desire you would Messenger. Must I keep him in custody? I do not know him. Cl. of Cr. No, you must order him from the Court to attend here. Just. Jones. These papers Colledge shall not |