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Hedid insist upon a great many matters in law, , But you ought not to have advice to decline and had the books there bimself.

your trial before-hand. Coll. I am wbolly ignorant of the law, my Cl. of the Cr. Are you Guilty or not Guilty? lord.

Coll. Mr. Attorney, pray let me have a copy Serj. Jefferies. Your lordships are the judges of the indictment. of the law in this case. The question here in Att. Gen. Apply yourself to the court for it, short is, whether the prisoner be Guilty or Not we must receive our directions from thence. Guilty, and that being demanded of him by the L. C. J. You have had the opinion of the court, if he refuses, let him take the conse- court, you can't have it. quence of it.

Just. Levinz. You have been told nothing Coll. What is that, pray, sir George ? can be received from you, but a plea of Guilty

Att. Gen. Judgment of High-Treason. For or Not Guilty, and the court have given you if a person stand mute, and will not plead to an their opinion, and that you cannot have a copy Indictment of High Treason, the common of the indictment, nor counsel assigned you, judgment of pressing to death must not pass till you offer something for them to be assigned upon him, but an attainder of High Treason. upon.

Coll. Well, if it be so, I cannot help it. I L. C. J. And that was it which was done in thank God, I am innocent of any treason, or the King's bench in the case of Fitzharris, any such thing

which I suppose you meant when you speak L. C. J. Why don't you plead Not Guilty, of the judges opinions. then ?

Just. Jones. Nothing was done there till he Coll. I do not refuse to plead, I am willing himself assigned the matter in law that he ty plead with all my heart, if I may have my would plead, and then counsel was assigned right.

him. Just. Jones. If you do not plead, you refuse Serj. Jefferies. Mr. Colledge was in the court to plead.

at that time, and can tell what was done. Coll. Pray, my lord, let me have my pa- L. C. J. If you desire the indictment read pers.

over again distinctly, that you may have. Att. Gen. Pray give the court an account, Att. Gen. Ay, with all my heart. where bad you those papers?

Coll. Pray let me bear it again, my lord, if L. C. J. Nay we will not enter into any ex

you please. amination of that matter now, Mr. Attorney; L. C. J. Read it over again to him, and read he can have no use of papers to see whether he it distinctly. should plead Guilty or Not Guilty:

Cl. of the Cr. Thou art indicted by the name Serj. Jefferies. We know nothing of those of Stephen Colledge, late of Oxon, in the county papers, we desire that he may answer to the of Oxon, carpenter, as a false traitor. question shortly, whether he bě Guilty or Not Coll. I have observed one thing already, my Guilty; if not, we pray your Jordship's judg-lord, I pray I may bave pen and ink, ment.

L. C. J. Ay, give him pen and ink, let him Coll I bad them not all from one person, make what observations he can. they were received from my own hands, some

Then the Clerk read the Indictment through. of them in the Tower; and being brought back to me, they were taken from me to day; Ct. of Cr. Ait thou Guilty of this Highlet me have but one of them : the paper of Treason, or Not Guilty ? instructions in point of law, that I

may

know Coll. This Indictment, if I understand it, what is my right: I would not throw away my says, there was a plot and conspiracy by me life, if I have any thing that is my right that and others; now I know when my lord Stafcan preserve it.

ford was tried, they did proceed to prove, L. C. J. You are to give a plain answer, first, that there was such a plot, and then that whether you are Guilty or Not Guilty, now for my lord was guilty of it; first, that there was that you have no use of papers : for you can such a conspiracy by the papists, is it not rebest tell whether you be guilty or pot. If quisite they should first prove such a plot, and you can propose any matter of law that you conspiracy there was, before they go to prove can have to plead, do it.

me guilty of it? Coll. If I have any plea, that I may plead Just. Jones. What before you bave pleaded ? besides Not Guilty, I desire I may

L. C. J. When you have pleaded, the next papers to consider of it, and that I may have thing is to try you, and to give the evidence ; counsel assigned me.

but what way the king's counsel will take to L. C. J. If you have any such plea, tell us manage your trial, that we can't tell. the matter and substance of it.

Just. Jones. But they are not to be directed Coll. I do not know what really are matters by you, Mr. Colledge. of law; if I had those instructions that are in Coll. It was so done, I say, in my lord Stafmy papers, I could give you a direct answer

ford's case. presently,

L. C. J. He pleaded first, however, you have L. C. J. You ought not to have any advice not yet pleaded. to declioe your trial: when you propose matter Cl. of Cr. Are you Guilty or Not Guilty ? of law yourself, you may have advice upon it. L. C. J. Do pot triße any longer, it is »

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VOL. VIII.

of

plain matter, and requires a very short and Serj. Jefferies. If Mr. Colledge have such a plain answer.

thing as a solicitor, I shall crave leave to put Coll. Your Jordships are my, counsel, as

tbat solicitor in mind of the case of one that well as my judges, and I do desire if I have was indicted of High-Treason. any right to plead any other matter, you will Att. Gen. We shall talk of that by-and-by. be pleased to declare it to me, for I am ignorant

L. C. J. The same methods are used in our in the law.

case, as are in all cases of the like nature, as Just. Jones. We have declared our opinion | far as my knowledge reacheth. already, that you have no right to have any Coll. If I have a right to the law, I must solicitor or council, till matter of law do arise. not lose it for my own ignorance of the law;

Coll. Is it your lorciship's opinion, that I bave but if you deny me both my counsel and my Do plea in law ?

papers, you take away the means of my comJust. Jones. Have you no plea in law ? ing to that right, and make me uncapable of

L. C. J. He would have our judgment, making my defence. whether there be any or Bo.

L. Č. J. You bave been told you must plead Just. Jones. You yourself know best ; we before you do any thing. know nothing you have to plead.

Con. This is the person (pointing to a perColl. I cannot, unless I have counsel and my son by him) that had the papers. Be pleased to papers,

command him, that I may have them again : L. C. J. There does nothing apppear to us. He said, he had orders to take them from me, Coll. I know nothing of the law.

and bring them to your lordship. L. C. J. Then plead Not Guilty, that is a L. C. J. I know of no use you could have teady plea.

any papers, to plead Guilty or Not Guilty. Just. Jones. You have had our opinion over Sol. Gen. If there be in those papers advice and over again. You have as much counsel as in matters of law, that you have been told you is allowed in these cases, for every man is best ought not to have, till the court has assigned judge of his own case, what to plead whether you counsel to give you advice. Guilty or Not Guilty : You have had as fair Coll. Then if there be a right in law, and a play as ever any man had.

privilege which I ought to have, I must lose it Att. Gen. Mr. Colledge has said, he knows by my being ignorant of it, and have no one ta of no plea in law he has, and therefore there is advise me about it neither. none; for de non apparentibus et non existen- L. C. I. You may propose it, if you have * tibus,' the reason is the same.

any, if not, you must plead to the indictment. L. C. I. In matter of fact, there is no plea, Serj. Jefferies. My lord, it has not been but Not Guilty.

usual for us, that are of the king's counsel, to Coll. The court are judges in matter of law, enter into dialogues with prisoners at the bar. and they are my counsel.

The first thing that is to be done in such cases, is Just. Jones. And the court have all of them for the prisoner to plead Guilty or Not Guilty, or declared, they know of nothing in law that you to ofier something to the court tbat may be a have to plead.

matter in law fit to be debated ; and this we Coll. Is not counsel to be allowed to one pray may be done in this case, and that the priunder circumstances ?

soner may plead presently, or else we desire L. C. I. If you have any thing for counsel your judgment. to be assigned upon, you shall have them. Coil

. Pray let me have my papers again, wy Coll. If I am ignorant of that, and cannot lord. propose it, shall I not have the assistance of L. C. J. You go in a circle, and run róund counsel?

from one thing to another, and will receive no Just. Jones. No, we have told you the law answer. We have told you our opinion, and plainly, and that wbich is frequent in practice we must tell you, though you hold long disin like cases, and you must be contented with courses, yet you will be judged last and mute, the same measure.

if you plead not a legal plea: Therefore you Coll. My lord, I am ignorant of the law. must plead Guilty or Not Guilty, or offer some

L.C. J. Then rely upon the fact, and plead thing that may be a plea in law, and then you Not Guilty.

shall have the assistance of counsel, but you Coll. But if I have a right to any point in must have none till then. law let me have it.

Coll. But shall I not have my papers, my Just. Jones. You have a right if you will lord ? propose any matter of law, but we cannot pro- L. C. J. We know nothing of them. pose it for you.

Coll. Pray, my lord, order the man to give Aut. Gen. Mr. Colledge, no man ought to them to me, that took them from me. propose your plea for you ; • Ignorantia juris L. C. J. We will order no such thing. He non excusat.'

may be a criminal perhaps that did give them Coll. Shail iny ignorance destroy me, Mr. you at first ; but when you pleaded, we will Attorney ?

motion

you

will make abont them. Sol. Gen. You bave heard the opinion of the Coll. It

may

be i ought to plead, that words court, you have a right to propose any other were spoken in another place than the place plea that you can yourself; but you have no laid in the indictment. suht to ask counsel before you have pleaded.

ny

hear any

L. C. J. You will not need to plead any such Coll. Why then as they have laid it in that
thing ; for if there be nothing proved of trea- indictment, in manner and form as it is there
son that you said or did in Oxfordshire, you laid, I am Not Guilty ?
must be found Not Guilty.

Cl. of Cr. Culprit, by whom wilt thou be
Coll. Here is another thing, my lord, I am tried ?
indicted by the name of Colledge, carpenter. Coll. By God and my country.
L.C. L. What then ?

Cl. of "Cr. God send thee a good deliver-,
Coll. I am not a carpenter, but a joiner; is ance.
that any bar to it?

Just. Jones. Not Guilty is his plea. L. C. J. The addition signifies nothing, I do L. C. J. Now he has pleaded, Mr. Attorney ; not know any difference betwixt a carpenter he speaks of some papers, if there be any meand a joiner in law.

morandums, or any thing that must assist him Just. Jones. They might have indicted you that is necessary for his defence in his trial in by the name of labourer, and it had been good. those papers, it will be hard to deny him them. Coll. Pray, my lord, either give me my

Att. Gen. If your lordships please to give papers or assign me counsel, or else I may me leave, I will give you an account of them. throw away my life, for I am wholly ignorant of The messengers just now did deliver these the law.

papers to be delivered to the court. L. C. J. When you have pleaded, we will Coll. Pray speak out, Mr. Attorney, and let hear any motion you will make, and do that me hear. which is just upon it; but I see no use you can Att. Gen. When he came to prison he had bave of papers to plead Guilty or Not Guilty, none, but Mr. Aaron Smith, the messenger inwhich is the only question is asked you. formed me, did deliver them to him. Cl. of Cr. Are you Guilty or Not Guilty ?

LC. J. Whose hand-writing are the papers Call. Will you promise me, my lord, there in ? shall no advantage be taken against me, if I do

Coll. He received them from me in the plead so?

Tower. L. C. J. We will make no bargains with you.

Just. Jones. You received them from him Plead as you ought by law to do.

first.-Coll. No. Coll. If matters of law arise, shall I have Att. Gen. What were the papers you decounsel to speak to them?

livered to him in the Tower ? Just. Jones. Yes, you shall, you need not Coll. The three pieces joined together that doubt it. Propose any matter now fit to be ar- contains directions how to govero myself; there gued, and you shall have counsel to it. is another to the same purpose, which instructs

Coll. I am not capable of doing it. I know me to demand a copy of the indictment, and of not when I have any right.

the pannel of the jury, and those were instrucJust. Jones. The court is of counsel to you.

tions to tell me what the law allows me. Coll. If you are my counsel, then have I Att. Gen. Here is a speech made for you any plea in law to make ?

that begins thus : Before you speak, speak to Just. Jones. You have heard the indictment this purpose.? Pray, my lord, I desire that read, what say you ? For you must propose the may be examined, and Mr. Smith may be matter.

called to give an account how he came to L.C.J. We know of none but Guilty or Not give the prisoner those papers; for here are Guilty; if you can tell any,«de.

abundance of nice ies proposed for him to move, Coil. I pray I inay have my papers agaio ; and there will be a strange sort of proceedings if there be no other plea for me, pray let me

at this rate, it'men go about to espouse the cause bare my papers again.

of traitors. L. C. J. You have heard the opinion of the Coll. I am no traitor, Mr. Attorney. court, you must plead.

Alt. Gen. You stand indicted of High-TreaAut. Gen. Certainly, Mr. Colledge, you cannot be guilty of these things, you need not to Coll. That is by a Grand Jury made up that scruple it, to plead Not Guilty, sure.

morning, as I am informed. Coll. My lord, having been kept a prisoner Att. Gen. Here is a list of the names of seas I have been, without pen, ink, or paper, no veral men of the county returned to be of the conversation with my friends, or knowledge of jury, and particular marks set upon them, who the fact, and being ignorant of the law, not know- are good men, and who bad men, and who moing where I have a rigbt, nor when I have a derate men. right, if you do force me upon this plea, and it cost Coll. Ought I not to have that paper, my me my life, at your doors lie it.

lord ? Just. Jones. You will lose your life if you Att. Gen. No, I hope not. do not plead ; if you plead Not Guilty, and L. C. J. Whether they are material, or not are not proved Guilty, you will save your life material, if we should judge them not material by this plea.

for his defence, yet it would look like an hard Coll, I. am willing to plead what the law re point upon the prisoner ; and to deliver them gnires of me to plead, and it I have right in law, into an hand that they may be carried away or would not lose it.

stifled, in case there were a crime in the deChof Cr. Are you Guilty or Not Guilty'? livering of them, that would not do well on the

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other side: therefore I would have these pa- L. C. J. We have read enough of this to pers put into some safe hands, that what may suppress it, and to examine how this came to be for the prisoner's use he may not want, and his hands. yet they may not be taken away, if there be Just. Jones. Where is Aaron Smith ? occasion to use them upon another account. Att. Gen. My lord, here is another that is

Att. Gen. But if it please your lordship, I worse than that, charging the justice of the desire you would enter into the examination of nation. Pray call Mr. Aaron Smith, and Mr. this matter; for I have an account from Lon- Henry Starkey. don by a special messenger, that there are se

Mr. Smith appeared. veral persons go up and down to procure witnesses against the king's evidence, making it a Att. Gen. Mr. Smith, did you deliver these public cause; and here, my lord, is another two papers to the prisoner ? paper which is a list of men as witnesses picked Smith. Does any body accuse me that I did? up together against the king's wituesses. Att. Gen. You are accused of it.

L. C. J. He must have that, deliver him that Smith. I desire proof may be made against presently. Att. Gen. But, my Lords, others have gone

Att. Gen. Tbat will be done. about and framed witnesses for him.

L. C. J. Look you, we will not interrupt L. C. J. You must give him the list of his the trial with it. Mr. Smith must be taken witnesses, for I see not what use you can make into safe custody, only, to secure bim till we of it.

can examine it, not as charged with any crime, Serj. Jefferies. This no man will oppose sure, but only that he may be forthcoming to be exif any thing that is delivered to him be fit to amined. be delivered, the person that delivers it must Att. Gen. You do not make a direct an. come and own it; but before any person de- swer, Mr. Smith, in the case, it will be proved livers any papers to the prisoner, for him to upon you. make use of against the king's evidence, we Smith. Mr. Attorney, I know not what andesire to know what those papers mean, and swer to make better than I have given ; our who gave them.

law says no man is bound to accuse bimself. L. C. J. Look you, brother, we will have Att. Gen. But our law says, you shall be nothing of heat till the trial be over, when that examined. is over, if there be any thing that requires our Smith. I come to give no informations bere, examination, it will be proper for us to enter Mr. Attorney; if I did I should be then exainto the consideration of it. · But in the mean | mined. while what hurt is there, if the papers be put Att. Gen. Here are instructions given to the into some trusty hands, that the prisoner may prisoner, they say you gave them. make the best use of them he can, and yet they Smith. I desire to have it proved. remain ready to be produced upon occasion : L. C. J. Mr. Attorney, you will take a reif a man be speaking for his life, though he cognizance of Mr. Smith, to be forth-coming speak that which is not material, or nothing to during this sessions. the purpose, there will be no harm to permit Smith. I will not depart, my lord, I assure that.

you; and I hope Mr. Attorney will take my : Serj. Jefferies. With submission, my lord, word. that is assigning him counset with a witness. Att. Gen. Indeed I will not, Mr. Smith,

Att. Gen. If people are permitted to go up because you have broken it with me already; and down and ask counsel of persons, and bring when I gave you leave to go to the prison, it in papers to the prisoner, it is the same thing did not think you would have abused that kindas if counsel came to him.' Here is a busy so- ness, to give bim papers. licitor, and he gets advice from counsel, and L. C. J. Well, take his recognizance. then he delivers it to the prisoner; it is the first Smith. It is high time to have a care, when of that kind certainly that ever was allowed ; our lives and estates, and all are beset here. and if this be not to assign him counsel, I know L. C. J. What do you mean by that, Mr. not what is.

Smith ? L. C. J. What think you of our perusing the Smith. I said it not, meaning by it the Court, papers ?

for I declare / abhor that expression to be so Att. Gen. With all my heart, my lord. interpreted, that I retlected upon the Court.

Coll. If you take away all helps from me, L. C. J. Why do you use such loose ex. you had as good condemn me without a trial. pressions then, Mr. Smith ? Att. Gen. You ought not to have belps to

Smith. Because I have been threatened since plead dilatories.

I came to town, though I have not spoke one Coll. Not to help me to my right in law ? word in any public company since I came.

Att. Gen. We are to go upon the fact now: Just. Jones. It seems you will reflect here in and, my lord, I pray your judgment about the face of the Court, and in the face of the them, when you have perused them. country, upon the government, upon the jus. Then the Judges looked upon that paper that

tice of the kingdom. was called the Speech.

Smith. No, my lord, I have told you what I meant by it; i neither reflected upon the

help it.

my lord ?

Court, nor upon the government, nor upon the Coll. My lord, I desire I may have that, justice of the kingdom.

that has in the

margin of it, the cases of Lil. L. C. J. You should have done well to have burne and Stafford. forborn such expressions as those were.

Just. Jones. You shall not have the instrucColl. Shall I not have the use of my papers, tions to scandalize the government, all that is my lord : will you not please to deliver them necessary for your defence, you shall have. back to me now you have perused them ?

L. C. J. If he had writ it bimself I cannot Just. Jones. One of them is a speech, and a well see how you could take it from him; and most seditious libellous speech, to spit venom truly as it is, I had rather let him have too upon the government in the face of the country. much than too little. We cannot tell who made it, but it seems to Coll. My lord, I thought I might have had be beyond your capacity ; and therefore we counsel to have assisted me, but it I

may

have must enquire into it : but we do not think counsel neither before my plea vor after, I that fit to let you have the use of that paper. am an ignorant may be lost by it, but cannot

L. C. J. For that which contains the names of the witnesses, that you have again : for the L. C. J. If matter of law arise, you shall aher matters, the instructions in point of law, have counsel to it. if they had been written in the first person, in Coll. I know not but it might bave admitted your own name, that we might believe it was of an argument, that which, if I had had my your writing, it would have been something ; papers, I should have offered to you. but when it is written in the second person, you L. Ć. J. Mr. Colledge, we shall not go any should do so and so, by which it appears to be farther now, I know not how many witnesses written by another person, it is an ill precedent will be produced either of one side or another, to permit such things; that were to give you but it is too late to go on this morning, and be counsel in an indirect way, which the law gives cause we attend here only upon this occasion, you not directly.

we shall go on with the trial at two o'clock in Coll. If I am ignorant what questions to ask the afternoon. of the witnesses, shall not my friends help me, Coll. My lord, will you be pleased to or

der the papers for me to peruse in the meanL. C. J. We will sift out the truth as well as time. we can, you need not fear it.

L. C. J. We have ordered that you shall Coll. Some of those things I took out of the have a transcript of the paper of instructions, books myself: and if you are resolved to take leaving out that which is scandalous. away all my helps, I cannot help it; I know Coll. I desire I may have a copy of the not that Mr. Smith wrote one of those papers. whole.

Att Gen. But Mr. Smith would have given Just. Jones. No, we do not think fit to do four guineas, it seems, as a bribe, to the gaoler, that. and he offered four more to let him have the Coll. Pray let me know which you do exliberty to come to him.

cept against. Serj. Jejf. It is time indeed for Mr. Smith to L. Č. J. Look you, Mr. Attorney, I think bare a care.

we may let him have a copy of the whole. Keeper. It was Mr. Starkey that offered me Att. Gen. My lorid, before you rise, I desire the four guineas.

you would be pleased to take the examination Att. Gen. Pray call Mr. Henry Starkey. of Mr. Gregory about Mr. Starkey. (But he did not appear)

L. C. J. Swear him. (Which was done.)

Att. Gen. What do Then the Court took a recognizance of 100?.

уот ! of Mr. Smith to attend the Court during the Mr. Starkey, and what did he offer you?

Gregory. When they came by your lordsession.

ship's permission to Mr. Colledge, they Coll. Pray, my lord, let me have my papers brought some papers which they delivered to delivered to me, I cannot make my defence him: and afterwards Mr. Starkey took me aside,

and told me, it was hard usage that the prisoner L. C. J. We are your counsel in matter of could not bave his counsel permitted to come to fact, and to give you your papers were to bim: do him what favour you can, and I shall assign you counsel against law, they being not not be ungrateful ; so he clapped four guineas your own papers, but coming from a third in my hand, but l'immediately laid them down hand.

upon the table, and would not take them. Coll. Will you please to give me the paper Att. Gen. My lord, I desire you would that has the questions in it, to ask the wit- please to send for Mr. Siarkey. nesses ?

L. C. J. Let him be sent for, L. C. J. There are no papers with any par- Cl. of Cr. You must go and take up Mr. ticular questions to any one witness, but only Starkey. instructions how to carry yourself in this case. Messenger. Must I keep him in custody ? I Coll. A great deal of it is my own, my lord. do not know him.

L C. J. Mr. Attorney, truly I think, that Cl. of Cr. No, you must order him from the which does not contain inatter of scandal, may Court to attend here. be transcribed and given to the prisoner.

Just. Jones. These papers Coledge shall not

know concerning

else.

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