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of his majesty's reigo, (1666,) and during a war Mr. Seymour. If that be the method, and with the States-general of the United Nether that be the way to come to your end, I anlands, he, the said Edward Seymour, being swer. then one of the commissioners for prize-goods, To the first Article: I do allow, that, by did fraudulently, unlawfully, and in deceit of virtue of that act, I received, as treasurer of bis majesty, unlade a certain prize-ship, taken the navy, 498,251.. 1s. 10d. and no more. That from the subjects of the said States, without any was the total for rigging and equipage of ships. ander or authority from the same; and did What was more, was for the ordnance, which use the lading and goods of the said ship, was above 20,000!. but by virtue of that, I reand lock up the same, without the presence of ceived no more than the former sum. That any store-keeper; and did afterwards sell the sum lord Danby paid, according to the inten. sme, pretending the same to have been only tion of the act, and none of the money was diMoscovado Sugars, and did account with his verted to any other use; as appears by the majesty for the same as such; whereas, in accounts. So that the balance of the total is truth, the said ship was laden with Cochincal | 91.5s. and that is all in my hands. The other and Indigo, rich merchandizes of a great va- sum for that service was 20,000l.which the king lue."
assigned out of his treasury. Several sums of
money were lent to Mr. Kingdon ; but what Wr. Fleetwood. The first two Articles, I were so lent were before the act for disbanding will undertake, shall be proved.
the army. As to the lending 90,0001. &c. I Mr. Vernon. As to the two last Articles, I never lent above 10 or 20,0001. and none of I have credible witnesses that will prove those sums were for building ships, but of my them, to satist's the House.
own proper money, and the money of my Mr. Seymour. When my charge is present- friends : And frequently the treasurer of the ed you in writing, I do not doubt but you will navy does make use of his credit for the king's give ine convenient time to answer it. It con- service. And this is my answer to the first sists of several parts; as matter of account, article. &c. and if I may have a copy of it, I shall make To the second Article, I humbly present this such an answer as will satisfy you, and, I am Answer: That it was in my power to dispose confident, every member.
of money till bills were brought signed, which Mr. Vernon. I suppose, the Articles ought they did not do as long as the money was in to be read, paragraph by paragraph, at the my hands. The 40,000l. I did issue and pay table. (It dropped.).
accordingly, which will appear by the merSir Francis Winnington. If your meaning chants, who are now ready, at the door, to be, that he shall answer in writing, I conceive, affirm it; and they did never call for money, when a man is impeached, the matter is to be till it was out of my hands. The time of confinally determined here. (But time being given tract and delivery of the goods was so long, Mr. Seymour to answer till Thursday, he went that all the money in my hands was gone: All not on.]
was done by the navy-board, and before the Mr. Seymour desires " he may have the inerchants came with their bills, it was so long, charge in writing.” This is an Impeach- that all the money was paid out. What will ment, and not to have its determination here, make this manifest, will be the merchants combut in the Lords House. We are the great plaint, the last parliament. I am so far from court of enquiry, and are to receive any infor- prejudicing them, that I did serve them what I mation. This impeachment being undertaken could, by reflecting on the hardship of their to be proved, I would know, whether, if articles case; and I bumbly offer you their petition. are exhibited, this House will admit, or allow, Mr. Harbord. You cannot receive this the person to give his answer here?
paper. If Seymour insists upon it, he must The Speaker. When Answer is made to the withdraw whilst you debate it. This is not the Articles, then is the proper question, Whether place to hear the merchants; that must be in it shall be given in writing. But your order another place. That Seymour should produce is, " That Mr. Seymour shall make answer on this paper, and desire that the merchants should Thursday, and that he have a copy of the be heard, is a strange motion to come from Articles.
Seymour, who has managed so many impeach. November 25.
Mr. Seymour. Thus much I know, that Mr. Seymour. You did appoint this time for when evidence is produced, it has never been me to present my Answer to the Charge against denied. me, I am ready to answer. I only wait your To the third Article: I had the honour to be method how I shall proceed; whether I shall Speaker of the House b--fore I was treasurer of give my answer in writing, or answer the Ar- the navy; and I was in the condition of a priticles as they are read.
vate gentleman ; but though it was not great, The Articles were read.
yet it did support my quality ; but it would not Mr. Harbord. You have appointed this day maintain the principal commoner of Engfor Mr. Seymour's Answer. It has been the land. I had the favour from the king to reconstant practice, when a member is accused, ceive 3,000l. a year, as for secret service, to that bestand up in bis place, and give Answer. avoid paying the fees in the Exchequer ;
which was all the favour I ever received from altngether positive in that question. I will lord Danby.
give you one instance more. The king was To the fourth Article: This Article is of mat- on the throne, and the last moment of the ters done fifteen years ago, and so uncertain a session, the House expected that the money. charge, that there remain not any footsteps. bill should be brought down from the Lords. For the prizes, I never received the money, nor | It was denied, and several messages passed beever was an accountant for the prizes. I acted no twixt the Houses. At last, it was not brought otherwise than as the other commissioners. In down, but met me at the bar. The king was the article it is called “a certain ship,” with angry at it. I said, “I would be torn out of out name: When it has a more certain name, the chair with wild horses, before I would stir and is a more certain charge, I shall make a without the bill.” The House, at the latter more certain answer to it. Since the commis- end of a session, were jealous of something missioners of the prizes were under a mistor that might be offered, and the House thin; tune, the great men at Brook-house never they were pleased to lay their trust in me, i spoke of it; and since that, there has been was to hinder it. But the matter of dischargan act of oblivion. But I disclum any benefit ing the Bankers Debt was brought in here, from acts of vblivion. This article is of inat- and in the Lords House, and if I could have ters done fifteen years since, and as there are no been prevailed with, that bill had been an act. footsteps of it, when persons will charge me Had I been a corrupt man, that bill might more particularly, I shall give a more particu- have passed. You have heard of it in Mr. lar answer.
Coleman's Papers. A gentleman brought me Mr. Montagu. If Seymour has done as well a present from the city of Loudon, and how as he has spoke (which is always well) he inay that gentleman and bis message were received, come off well. I move that he may withdraw. he will tell you: he is a man of honour. I
Mr. Seymour. I know what becomes me in have taken no indirect way. In the latter end point of duty. I acknowledge the justice of of the parliament that the Plot was discovered the House in their proceeding with me, in in, I suppose it will be adnitted that nothing granting me a copy of my Charge, and conve- was wanting in the chair for the discovery of nient time to make my answer; and I hope to it. It was dissolved, but by whose counsels I make my defence plain to the House, if not know not. I had the honour to be of it, and a to every particular member. It is my misfor- greater honour, to exercise your place. I was tune to answer as criminal, but I do not mis- placed in the chair by persons not used to doubt my cause, or apprehend a censure from Hatter, and, I believe, not me. (Colonel Birch.). the Commons of England, who will do ac- And in my carriage in that employment, i cording to justice. Thegentleman that brought hope, I gave up no right nor privilege of the in the Articles, had another, carried on by the House. I have the honour to be named a mawings of fame, “ That I was a person of no nager at the trial of the Lords in the Tower ; fortune,” and “ That I advised the king to and that Lord, that shall fall into my hands prorogue or dissolve this parliament, that I was shall have little reason to think I should favour popishly affected, and bad given popish coun- popery. I knew nothing of the dissolving of sels.” Things of this nature make impres- the last parliament, but I am sure 1 advised sion, when we are involved in common danger. the calling this. I had a great sickness, and And I can scarce promise myself to be equally went into the country, and returned not till six lreard, and not harılly judgeil. That prompts or seven days within this parliament ; and how me to my vindication. If any thing looks like these unprecedented prorogations have been vanity in me, the good a man has done, or made, I know not. Concerning the duke of endeavoured to do, may be made use of, when York, how he came to be called back, when there is a presumption of doing ill. My gone away, I know not; but being here, and family were instrumental in the reformation. in two or three days sent away, my observation and not any have been pointed out for propery. was, “ "hat playing tricks with the parliament The first step I ever made in public, was being would not do." But I could not justify it, a member of parliament, and what my carriage that by royal authority any man should be has been is no secret; and when, in continu- banished; but sending delinquents away is a ance of time, I had wearied that service, I had greater crime than I have to answer for. the honour to be called to the chair, not sought Having made this declaration of my part, in for, either to the king, or the House. I affirm, the next place I hope there will be a happy I was indifferent wiiether-- In that parliament, issue of this parliament, and I think it not in I cannot justify, but that I was subject to mis- the power of any man to step betwixt the king takes, and those were questioned; but reasons and the parliament, and those about him know and precedents were produced, which made the how much he believes his safety is in the parHouse doubt, by letting fall the debate. I knew liament. I cannot say I have made so good that the chair could not wander, but in paths use of my knees as I ought to do, but not as I untrodden; but the resolution of the House hear I am reported to have done, to beg of his once taken was punctually observed by me. At majesty for a prorogation of this parliament ; that time there was an extraordinary question but I should do it to establish peace in the in the Lords House in relation to judiciary kingdom. But I am unhappy to fall into the causes. I remember that the chair was not displeasure of some whom I have no great generation for. Let those men walk abroad said, here is nothing but an affirmative and a with what penetential words they please. They negative, and so perhaps men may not be able that have broken the triple league, shut up the to give a judgınent, to say what to do. From exchequer, because I would not trust their precedents in your ancestors time, and in the Crunsels. When the parliament is dismissed, Long Parliament, of Impeachments, the questhey will do the same thing again. That the tion is now," Whether Mr. Seymour is so far Protestant religion may be preserved, I am for guilty of this charge, as in your judgment to the preservation of the crown. There remains proceed to impeachment.” Îhough he has anmy charge with you. Do as you think fit, I swered all the four articles, and endeavoured to Fill do ás an honest man, and never depart clear himself from other aspersions. When he for my resolutions of my sincerity in the was in the Speaker's chair (as you said very Protectant religion, and service to my country. well in your speech, “ the chair had been
Mr. Miles Fleetwood. He answered not to so vitiated,'') I have seen him cast his eye the Artiele, " That he misemployed the public about, and he was come to that perfection, as money." I do justify it, and will prove it by to a man to tell you how a vote would pass, good testiniony, that the money granted for and spies and emissaries were sent out, to fetch an actual war with France was not so disposed men in : this I have seen an hundred times. of, but to a contrary use. Pray read the This article two gentlemen undertake to prove, charge, article by article, that we may know and no man can say, but that if he be guilty your opinion of it.
of it, he has made a great breach of his trust. Mr. Vernon. To the last Article " of Money The witness that can prove this article, had his received for Secret Service,” what secret ser- hand in putting out the money. When a memrice he did that parliament, he that received ber cannot make good the article, he names the money knows better than I. Unless leap- witnesses. The first article can be proved by ing out of the chair* was “ secrei service,” a man that had his hand for it, and Seymour and that needs no proof. Though he denies has threatened the man to ruin him, if he gave selling the king's prizes under the notion of evidence. (Some called out, “Name the man.") coarse sugars for Indigo, and Cochineal. As They that bid me name him, are as ill men as for the act of Indemnity, 'I know not how that he (Seymour.) If gentlemen bid me name a can clear him, since he is impeached; it is not witness, that an offender may escape, they are proper here to determine, but in the Lords as guilty as the person accused. House. If we have not justice against him in Sir William Jones. I have attended the dethe Lorus House, I know not where we can bate, and this is not the time to bring that in bave it any where else. In the Courts of question. Seymour is a man of great eloWestminster, where the judges stop all pro- quence, and has showed you that he is an able ceedings, I expect it not. The duke of York man. If he be good, he is able to do much was imlicted for a papist, and in other present- good by it ; if otherwise, much burt. He has ments of papists, they stopped the courts of answered the articles, one by one, and it is not law, because they were too big for the law. much matter whether his answer had been This man is in so much favoar at court, and “ Not Guilty” only, and he could not make a has so much money to manage, that he can better answer. I take it, that, as to the great make all of his side. See the effect of your sum given by act of parliament for building address to the king; you had put the king of ships, his charge is, “ That he diverted upou a most grateful act to the city, and done that to another purpose, and indeed to an ill good service to the nation in the country, yet purpose, to keep up the army:" His answer he, Jeffreys, is chief justice of Chester still. is, “ That he received so much, and the rest This address was not granted, nor your ad- was the ordnance, and was paid according to dresses for pardon of such as should come in the act ;" and he has referred you to his acto discover the Plot; if erer men deserved count, and there remains gl. &c. It may be, pardon, they did, when the kirg's life and na- the money lent for keeping up the army was tion were in danger, and an exception of “ per- other men's money, upon the credit of himself jury” was put into one of the pardons. What and his friends. With all fairness I do repre. have you bad of effect from your addresses, by sent the cflect of the charge, and his answer. means of such counsellors as Seymour near the I do not deay but that this is a good enswer, king? I move you to put the question, “That but all in effect atuounts to no more than, “ Not there is matter of impeachment in this charge.” guilty of the charge." I did observe, that he Mr. Har bord. I pretend not to charm any man
has deceived no man's expectation in his by what I shall say ; but the first step you are abilities. He introduced his speech to this efto make, is to read the charge, article by article. fect,“ That he was ucfortunate to have a
The Article was read “ for the Money given charge against hin, but it would be less so, befor Ships.”
cause he should be heard in parliament, and Mr. Harbord. So great care the parliament would call an Eastland merchant to testify for took to provide money for ships, and punish- him, &c.” But that is a mistake. I am ment for diverting that money. Now, in short, afraid this House cannot judge this matter. I wherber can this article be proved ? It may be could wish they had that power. It may be, afraid this House has none. I rise not to ag- I mentioned, but on the contrary. It is no light gravate one point of the charge. If he be thing for the Commons to make complaint to the guilty, let him be condenined ; if not, ac- Lords of one of their own members. This will quitted. You (under favour) have nothing be but a mean recompence of your credit, to to consider, but whether this article be a crime, lose your proof, when witnesses shall go back if proved. Seymour did not take upon him to in the Lords House, and the Commons use tell you this article was no crime, though prov- not to fail in their prosecution. For that reason ed. No doubt, if proved, it is a crime against the Commons have given notice to offenders, as several acts of parliament, appropriating sums to the duke of Buckingham, &c. because they of monėy, &c. that they should not be misap- would be so well informed, that they may never plied. If he, as treasurer of the navy, has complain, but the person may be found guilty. mis-spent it, to another use, it is a crime; the It is a matter of s. great weight, an impeachpenalties and and forfeitures are fine, and loss ment, that the Commons ought not lightly to of his place, if he be guilty of a new crime : accuse. Impeachment is your weapon, and The next article is of great consideration : you must not blunt it. If you are mistaken There was an act of parliament for a war with in one part of it, you may be in another; and France, and that army had the ill luck to go it will be a fatal thing to go to the Lords with off with pay, and not fighting. That money a mistake. You have heard Seymour's de was not fit to pay them, but money was bor- fence and Kingdon's evidence. rowed to keep the army up. No man can Mr. Harbord. Vice-Admiral Penn and comthink but that this was a crime to continue the missioner Pett were accused at Brooke-House army against an act, though he lent the king before the commissioners of accounts*. Penn his own money, especially considering the was accused, that he had embezzled prizehazard the nation did run, by that army's being goods. He was summoned bither, and ankept up, when there was no work for them, swered his charge; and then the question was, good actions ; it may a little mitigate bis pu- ground for impeachment?”. And it was renishment in the Lords court; but this is not so solved in the affirmative. You have the same proper, to tell you any other aggravations not in grounds now against Seymour. I can underthe article. If they be crimes, let them add them take for myself
it would be more secure for the nation, that this * See 4 Cobb. Parl. Hist. p.890.
House had a several judicature ; but I ain
, but not for another man, to as articles ; let right be done, and proceed make good what I have asserted. Mrs. Cellier with that gravity as in other places. If any disposed of an hundred pounds to get the erimember will say that this matter contained in dence against the lords in the Tower taken off. the article is an offence, let him rise up and say If evidence against Seymour be named, they so. Two members baye said, that they do un- may be taken off. We see money has ruined dertake to prove it.
us, but hereafter I shall propose a way to make Sir Tho. Lee. That which is out of ques- the kingdom happy. tion is not the question ; but the question is, Mr. Booth. I rise up to undeceive gentle. “ Whether upon these articles, you will im- men. I hear it said abroad, “ that friendship peach Mr. Seymour?"
guides me in this matter, and not reason and Mr. Kingdon. I should not rise up to speak, honour."—Whosoever says so, is guilty of unless it were in my power to give the House prejudice. If Seymour be guilty, condemn some information ; and it is only because I am him; if innocent, acquit him. If we be baffled named by Mr. Seymour, to whom I lent money. in this impeachment in the Lords House, it will This money he lent to me; but whether it was be a prejudice to all you shall do; therefore I misemployed, I know not. He has offered to would commit the Articles to be well considered. produce his accounts. Some part of this In the last parliament these Articles were let money he lent me not, for some part he bor- slip, and I doubt it will be said, there is some. rowed of me. As to the other part, said to be thing of revenge in it, more than upon public lent for continuance of the army, 1 lent none account. And it:hat appear, it will be a damp for that purpose ; for those great sums were to all you do. Therefore commit the Articles. lent long before the matter of disbanding the Mr. Montagu. In the last parliament, did army entered into debate, or whether you come a credible substantial gentleman with an should continue them. Long before the act impeachment against Seymour; but he had for disbanding the army, there was a necessity used him ill, and the parliament was dissolved. that the army in Flanders should have 10,0001. Sir Christ. Musgrude. An Impeachment has to prevent them from starving: The other been brought in, and your member has answered money I took out of his house to disband the it. What is before you is, the ground of Impeacharmy with, which might else have cost the king- ment in this Article. The members that brought dom 80,0001. more.
in the articles may have ground to believe them, Sir Thomas Lee. I have been long acquainted yet they may be deceived, and sy you expose and have had a friendship with Mr. Seymour, the honour of the House. In the Impeachbut what I shall say shall be for your service ment of lord Mordaunt, several witnesses were which will be, to commit this matter at large, examined, and several days were heard; and because Seymour is charged with having em- Dext, you have done so in the case of Sir Wilployed the money to different uses,and Kingdon says it was not employed to the uses in the article * See vol. 6, pp. 866, 870 of this Collection.
lian Penn. Several persons did enquire into Clarendon's case. The money might be lent miscarriages, and it was so difficult to make and possibly the individual money for ships that them out, that the House did, by act, &c. com- were to be built ; but can any man have satismission persons to enquire into them. They faction, unless a committee enquire ? And so examined witnesses upon oath at Brooke-House, your honour will be saved. Be upon sure and they made a particular report of the evi- ground, and that the evidence may be clear,comdance. Could any thing be clearer ? But here mit it. it is said, “gentlemen will make this charge Mr. Papillon. There were two acts for disgood;" but yet no proof is made of them. banding the army, but the parliament had a deymour produces his account, and will stand trick put upon them. There was two hundred and fall by it. Kingdon tells you, “ That that thousand pound given for disbanding the army, of the money borrowed was a mistake, and that and it was employed to keep it up. I am money was not so employed as in the charge.” afraid, this money lent by Seymour was that I move, therefore, that it be committed. which kept it up. He should not bave parted
Jr. Loze. I sat in great awe in the Long Par- with the money till it was effected. I do not lay lizmeut; but Seymour, I remember, accused so much weight upon what is said by Mr. ford Clarendon in the Long Parliament*. It Kingdon, as to carry this charge to a comwas then said, “ To charge that great lord, and mittee. prore nothing, would be a dishonour to the Mr. Kingdon. I speak to orders. I should House." A great gentleman then of the House not have troubled you, but that I find myself it may be, I can produce the very Speeches I reflected on by Papillon. All that money went to then took, in short-hand, both those against disband the army, and what was lent to Nir. him and for him ; those who were for Clarendon Seymour was before the disbanding the army. were for discovering witnesses, that they might Sir Fr. Winnington. I look upon this Article, be taken off,) lord Vaughan, upon his honour, and I find it mentions not one word of of Kingdid undertake to prove the article “ of betraying don, but “ that Seymour directed 80,0001. the king's secret counsels to his enemiest;' and &c.” But that Kingdon's money was not this that was all that was expected, that a gentle money, is more than any man can say. Kingman should rise up and say, “ I undertake to don is complained of for mispaying the money. prove that article."
Proximus ardet, &c. I should be glad if SeyColonel Birch. Love tells you, “ he sat mour was not impeached; but there is a purunder great awe in the Long Parliament;" and ticeps criminis, &c. I affirm, that, when the I under great fear; for that I thought never to committee sat for enquiry after the pensioners see the dissolution of that parliament. I re- of the long parliament, a gentleman of quaberber that business of the Impeachment of lity gave evidence, it worked so hard. And that lond Clarendon. In short, I did not believe one was the reason the charge came not in that parword of that which Clarendon was accused of. liament against Seymour, that parliament being I pressed no witnesses to be examined, but far- soon discharged. I would know, when a man ther to examine the matter. We know which is impeached, if, any man shall stand up wind blew Clarendon over sea, and what wind and say, “ he does not believe the antiblows now. Seymour has said, “ he is a lover cles,” whether this shall destroy any imof his king and country, &c.” but I cannot but peachment? But gentlemen say still
, it may observe the hand of God in this charge against be committed, which is a gende rejection of Clarendon. When Seymour was in the chair, the thing. If this gentleman be guilty, it is no maa was more sharp upon me, and I some- more glorious for him to be tried in the greattimes as smartly replied. But as to the last est place of the kingdom, and to justify him, parliament, I think he did believe the plot in the self, than to stifle it here by commitment; and Long Parliament, and therefore I did recom- then the next thing will be, witnesses will run mend him to the chair. If he be guilty of this away, because this great man is too great for charge, no man shall prosecute him with more the Commons of England. If you take away the warmth than I will do. When you resolved means you take away the end. The court that money should be given upon a poll-bill, ever calls for prosecutors, but never for witfor the French war (which I was convinced of) nesses, till issue be joined. Seymour has coma 100,000!. for some things was to be provided mitted a great crime, and he will commit a in a few days; I said to sir R. Howard, “You greater to keep himself from justice. I was bare 50,000!. remaining, &c. in your hands ;” counsel for lord Mordaunt * in his impeachhe rephed, “ I would be taxing, &c.” I told ment; and I remember the House would not you formerly of “a cudgel, that would break let me produce one witness for him, and he was that glittering bottle, the French king ;” but impeaclied. We know what constitution the you must have a sharp sword to do it now. Sir long parliament was of, and what precedents Robert Howard said, “ He had orders for is- they made ; but at the latter end of it, when suing out that money, &c.” I never heard but it began to be filled with brave men, Articles that if a member said, he was mistaken in an were presented against lord Danby, and there Article, it was no farther insisted on; as in was nothing but prosecution, no recommit
ment. If the articles be not proved upon trial, • See vol. 6, p. 323 of this Collection. P
* See vol. 6, p. 785, of this Collection. L
340. VOL. VIII.