result of any civil action, the party may avoid any costs or penalties by escaping to England. With all these delays and disadvantages, the fees in those courts were as great as those in the court of chancery in England, and that too in matters of inferior moment. He could say a great deal more upon this subject, but he would not then take up the attention of the House. He would only observe, that from those circumstances many persons were prevented from applying for redress; and to those who did, there was no appeal from this miserable tribunal but to the House of Lords. He would pass over the obvious defect of the judges of those courts being allowed to practise as barristers in other courts, and the circumstance of one judge always going the same circuit; and he would come to the manner in which those judges were ap pointed. The appointment lay in the Treasury; and when a vacancy occurred, instead of looking about at the bar, for the most proper person to fill it, they looked at the House of Commons, of which they knew much more; and if a seat could be secured or a vote gained by it so much the better. They were not very nice in their selection, as the salary was so small, and the situation itself so undignified, that few lawyers of respectability could bear to lose so much of interest and character as the acceptance of this situation might suppose. These circumstances created a feeling in many of the inhabitants of Wales, towards the judges, the very reverse of that which ought to be held for persons acting in a judicial capacity. The hon. member then went on to contrast the situation and character of the English and Welsh judges. The character of an English judge was, be observed, honourable, dignified, and independent. His situation had been made independent of the Crown by an act of his late majesty. It was one of the first, and might be considered as one of the best and most important, acts of his reign. The English judge held his situation free and independent of the Crown; he discharged the duties of his high office without dependence upon those by whom he was appointed. The situation of the Welsh judge was, on the contrary, dependent and obscure, the administration of justice vague and uncertain. Indeed, the inhabitants of Wales might well complain that they were deprived of those advantages of equal administration of justice, which it was declared by several statutes in different reigns, that they should enjoy. They had now a system of judicature which seemed, as it were, but a mockery of their rights; and the more so, as a separate one for them was not necessary. It was impossible, under those circumstances, that they could look with that respect on their judges, which the situation of judges required. They saw the Welsh judge appointed by, and dependent on, the Crown; and at the close of his judicial career, looking to the Crown for a pension, or some other remuneration for his services. He wished to know why it was that eight judges should be considered necessary for Wales, while only twelve were thought sufficient for England? He considered, that if there were only four judges, the business might be done as well or better, under particular regulations, than it now was. He had heard the noble lord (Castlereagh) state, on the discussion with respect to the appointment of a judge in the Scotch Exchequer Court, that his majesty's ministers would not forfeit their public duty by making such situations a subject of patronage. He was anxious to put this declaration to the test, by moving a resolution that the judges in Wales should be held incapable of holding seats in that House. He would not detain the House by pointing out the remedies which might be necessary for the evils he had detailed. They had been ably stated by lord Colchester in his remarks upon the Welsh courts. He had observed, that if the business of Wales were added to that which the English judges had already to discharge, which was in itself fully sufficient for their attention, it would be too great a weight upon them; but he thought that three judges in addition might be sufficient to answer the purpose—to assist at the Old Bailey, and also to go occasionally to the northern counties. The hon. gentleman then alluded to the changes which had been made in the number of the judges in some of our courts under different reigns, to show that the present number had not been invariably adhered to; and concluded by moving, "That a select committee be appointed to consider the state of the court of judicature in Wales; the propriety of abolishing the same; and the means by which Wales may be most readily included within the English circuits, and to report their opinions thereupon to the House." Mr. Warren, chief justice of Chester, said, that in the violent tirade which the hon. gentleman had just delivered against Welsh judges, he had made no exception, Welsh judges in times past and time present, were equally denounced, and even Welsh judges in time to come were to be affected by the contagion of their example, With respect to those observations which applied to himself— Mr F. Campbell denied having made any personal observations. Mr. Warren resumed. The hon. gentleman had certainly said that all were obscure and all were ignorant. The hon. gentleman, living in the part of the country in which he did, could not but know that there were persons who filled situations of as high honour and integrity, and as much professional knowledge as ever presided over any court of justice. One of them was a friend of the hon. gentleman, a most esteemed friend of the late Mr. Fox, and appointed by Mr. Fox to the situation. Nothing but the desire of sinking Welsh judges to the lowest abyss of infamy, could have induced the hon. gentleman to assert, not only that all who now existed, but that all who ever had existed, were corrupt. Did the hon. gentleman ever hear of sir William Grant? He thought not. Of lord Kenyon, of lord Redesdale, of sir Vicary Gibbs, of the present lord chief justice of the Common Pleas? He thought not. If the hon. gentleman had recollected that all these distinguished persons had, at one period of their lives, presided over the courts of Wales, he would scarcely have passed such a sweeping censure upon all Welsh judges. He did not know whether he was himself considered an obscure and ignorant person. He had once many friends on the opposite side of the House [Hear!]; and he hoped he still continued to retain their friendship, though he was aware that little dependence could be placed on the continuance of friendship where party considerations interfered. In looking round the House, he saw many gentlemen on both sides of the House who had done him the honour to employ him [Hear, hear!]. He would take that opportunity of alluding to some observa tions of a noble lord opposite, which he had seen in the public prints, and which evidently alluded to himself; they were in the same spirit as the tirade which had been just uttered by the hon. gentleman, and he begged to assure the noble lord and the hon. gentleman, that he had too much respect for both of them to feel any thing like anger. He gave them credit for saying what they felt themselves bound to say, and he would take the same credit to himself. He knew not whether the House would feel disposed to go into the inquiry proposed by the hon. gentleman, but for his part he certainly should not oppose it. He could not help observing, however, that the hon. gentleman had treated the subject as if no inquiry had ever been instituted by parliament. It would be in the recollection of many members, that in the year 1817, a committee was appointed to inquire into the mode of administering justice in Wales. The committee, after a full examination of the subject in May, made their report in July, and had, in fact pointed out all the defects upon which the hon. gentleman had argued this evening. So far, however, from coming to the conclusion, that the courts ought to be abolished, they recommended them on account of the cheapness and expedition with which justice was administered. The hon. and learned gentleman observed, that it was his intention himself to bring forward a bill to remedy the defects in the system of administering justice in Wales, but that he thought proper to wait the result of the hon. mover's proposition. To that proposition he could not think it necessary to accede, because no information of any importance could be expected through any new committee, which was not already before the House, through the committee which sat upon the subject on a former occasion. Before that committee no less than thirty-five very intelligent individuals were examined, among whom were barons Wood and Garrow, and that very respectable person Mr. Benyon, the attorney-general for Chester. Could the hon. mover then suppose that any further review of this case was requisite, or that any new committee was likely to reverse the decision of that to which he had alluded?-Here the hon. and learned gentleman adverted to a petition from a num ber of most respectable gentlemen in the county of Carnarvon, praying for the correction of the errors of the existing system, but deprecating the idea of totally abolishing the Welsh judicature. The bill prepared by Mr. Jones, which was in his possession, and which he meant to submit to the consideration of the House, was quite in accordance with this petition, in the learned gentleman's politics (a change, by-the-by, which justified the old adage, as to the proximity of extremes), but that his new judgeship was connected with his new opinions [Hear, hear!]? But the sudden change of the learned gentleman's sentiments, of which he had never heard until the learned gentleman became a judge, was not more remarkable than the ardent zeal which he displayed for his new adherents. This zeal, was, however, very possibly the effect of that apprehension which generally haunted inconsistent politicians, that to appear more ardent than others, was somewhat necessary to avert the suspicion of a disposition to relapse. The hon. gentleman concluded with repeating it to be his opinion, that the learned gentleman's own conduct afforded ample reason to convince the House and the country, that a Welsh judge or a chief justice of Chester should not be allowed to sit in that House. that bill being fully calculated to remedy all the defects pointed out in the report of the committee which before sat upon this subject. That bill, therefore, he thought would give satisfaction to the people of Wales, as well as promote the ends of justice. The hon. and learned gentleman apologized for the length of his speech, and especially for those remarks which referred to himself, but such remarks he felt to be necessary, in consequence of the tirade against him, which had been uttered upon a former occasion by a noble lord opposite (lord J. Russell). But that tirade was unfounded in attributing to him a selfish motive for accepting the office which he at present held, as it was well known that were he to accept the Chiltern Hundreds he could, even from his practice before committees above stairs, soon contrive to earn enough to purchase a moiety of the fee simple of the salary which that office afforded. The hon. and learned gentleman concluded with expressing his intention to decline voting upon this motion, as he was in some degree personally concerned. Lord John Russell disclaimed the tirade attributed to him by the hon. and learned gentleman. He indeed recollected to Mr. Creevey declared, that he was not have seen such a tirade ascribed to him, able to see upon what ground, while the in what purported to be a report of his English judges were excluded from seats speech, in one of the newspapers usually in that House, the Welsh judges should devoted to the service of administration, be allowed to sit there. The object of namely, that the hon. and learned genthe law which excluded the English tleman was always ready to support the judges obviously was, to preserve the unconstitutional measures of his majesty's bench from any taint of political or party ministers. What could induce the rebias, and with the same view those judges porter to ascribe these words to him, were rendered independent of the Crown. or the learned gentleman to conclude If, then, it was deemed proper to keep that he uttered them, he could not prethe judges from among those who were tend to say. But he certainly had never within the sphere of political action or said any thing of the kind. What he influence, why should the Welsh judges really had said on the occasion alluded be allowed to sit in that House? The to was this, that the judgeship which the conduct, indeed, of the learned gentleman learned gentleman occupied was usually himself, who had just sat down, furnished granted as a reward or retainer for the a strong argument, if any were wanted, support of ministerial measures, while to show that the judges should not be that judgeship was generally a step toallowed to have seats in that House. wards other offices, the holders of which He had known his learned friend, if he would were always the supporters of the minis allow him now so to call him, for above ter of the day-that is, that the chief twenty years, during which hecould not say justiceship of Chester was usually a step that he agreed with the learned gentleman towards the offices of either attorney or in political opinion, as that learned gen- solicitor general, which was an observatleman went generally much farther than tion fully justified by experience. he could [Hear, hear!]. The learned was well known that the act which rengentleman, indeed, usually concurred with dered the English judges independent of the hon. baronet, the member for West- the Crown had given universal satisfacminster, who was uniformly the subject tion; and looking to the principle and of his most fervent panegyric. What, purpose of that act, he was at a loss to then, was the inference from the extra-imagine any defence that could be framed ordinary change which had taken place for placing the Welsh judges in a dif VOL. I. 3 C It felt aversion to any sudden alterations, or to those alterations that were at variance with long established practice.But still he considered that Welsh judges should not be allowed to act as barristers for many obvious reasons. He should be glad, under all the circumstances, when the committee was revived, that the former evidence should be referred to them, as in consequence of the la chairman of the committee, together with other circumstances, the effect and bearing of the evidence taken before it had never been fully discussed. ferent situation from that of the judges of England, or how it could be supposed that human nature was likely to be so different in different places, that when a Jawyer was appointed to an office in Wales he was not as liable to be influenced by those motives which usually operated upon mankind as when he held a similar office in England. Under those impressions he supported the argument of his hon. friend, that Welshmented death of Mr. Ponsonby, the judges should not be allowed to sit in that House, and would vote for the motion. The hon. and learned gentleman had that day endeavoured to make an extraordinary display of his purity and disinterestedness, by alleging that he took his present office without any view to emolument, and that if he had vacated his seat, which he had scarcely occupied when he became a judge, he would have an opportunity of earning much more money by attending as a barrister before the committees above stairs than the salary of that judgeship afforded. Therefore as the learned gentleman maintained, that in taking office he had no view whatever to profit, it must be supposed that he regarded that office as an accession to his character; which he perhaps concluded would be more elevated by the connexions which he had lately formed, and the opinions which he had lately adopted, than by those connexions and opinions which he happened to maintain while he associated with his hon. friend who had last addressed the House and others holding the same political sentiments. If this were really the learned gentleman's impression, and he actually thought his character stood higher in the country in consequence of his recent change, he should only say, that he wished the learned gentleman joy upon his taste and judgment. Mr. Wynn regretted the personalities that had been indulged in. When the former report was made, the present chief justice of Chester was not a member of that House. The committee of 1817 did much; but in the absence of so many members, they did not give any positive opinion as to the Welsh judges. With respect to the motion, he felt some difficulty. His own opinion always was, that the abolition of the present system of Welsh judicature could not all at once be effected, or effected with imme te advantage, At the same time, he Colonel Wood, who had also been a member of that committee, said, that the opinion of Mr. Ponsonby, whose name would always be looked up to with respect, had at one time been strongly in favour of abolishing the Welsh system of judicature altogether; and it was but fair to state the manly and candid manner in which that lamented individual acted as chairman. He did distinctly understand Mr. Ponsonby's opinion to have been completely changed by the evidence laid before the committee, and that he thought, on examination into the subject, that the Welsh judicature possessed many advantages, and should not be done away with altogether.— Among all the witnesses examined before the committee, there was only one, a Mr. Owen, who wished the system to be abolished. No question had been put to any of the witnesses, as to the propriety of these judges sitting in that House; nor was there any occasion for hearing evidence on that point before a committee, because it was a question on which the House was able to judge without any such inquiry. One ground of complaint had been, that in consequence of the ambulatory habits of the equity barristers who attended the circuits, the suitors in the courts of equity in Wales could not sometimes get their causes heard for six months. This he thought a less hardship than it had been represented; for he believed that many of the suitors in the equity courts of England would be very well satisfied if they could obtain a hearing in six years. The hon. gentleman proceeded to state various arguments against the abolition of the present system. One reason for not including Wales in the circuits was, that many of the witnesses could not speak a word of English. But accordingly, those members of the committee who were in town concurred in thinking that it was proper to call the attention of the House to such parts of the judicature as they considered to require alteration. The impression on Mr. Ponsonby's mind was clearly and decidedly this-that, on the whole it would not be a good thing to abolish the system of judicature entirely. The reason of that impression he believed to have been founded upon the general feeling of the country, and upon the opinion of Mr. Serjeant Heywood on the subject. he would suggest, that the most serious inconvenience would arise, if the present chief justice, for instance, of the King'sbench, or any other of the bench of judges, were to be required to travel the Welsh circuit. The state of the roads would go far to make their arrival at their destination a very questionable matter. And, in proof of this, he well remembered the unfortunate adventure of Mr. Justice Harding, who was proceeding upon the circuit in that country, when his horse fell down and broke his leg,; so that, if it had not been for the friendly assistance of a brother judge, Mr. Justice Harding, would not have been enabled to arrive in time for the opening of the session. He wished hon. gentlemen would view the thing dispassionately, and getting rid of all party feeling, only consider the claims of Welshmen, They were certainly in a state of gradual improvement, which was manifested more and more every year; and were rapidly getting rid of the use of the Welsh language. But he was sure that they would be much dissatisfied if their judicature was ever altered. He thought that the effect of the present motion, so far from giving to the Welsh any advantages beyond what they at present possessed, would rather be to excite dissatisfaction throughout the principality. He could see no good that was likely to result from the revival of the committee: all the evidence which could be procured, through the labours of a committee, had been already laid before the former. Mr. Wrottesley thought it his duty as the evidence which had been brought be fore the committee which was formerly appointed by the House to inquire into this subject had been so frequently alluded to this night to say, that as much of it was procured as every member of the committee thought necessary. And it was but justice to say, that every possible diligence was used by the late right hon. gentleman who was the chairman, to enable them to come to a proper and final determination upon the question submitted to them. It had been dete: mined to meet, for the purpose of making a full report, when, in the mean time, that deplorable event which all the country sincerely regretted took place. Consequently the committee never did meet again; but it was thought necessary that a report of some kind should be agreed upon; and, Mr. Chetwynd thought what had passed in the House that night quite a suffi cient reason for a change of system with regard to the Welsh judges. For to see a gentleman who wore the robe of a judge, standing in that House to plead and at liberty to decide in a cause in which he was personally interested, appeared to him a very great anomaly. He really thought that ministers would do well to give up the source of patronage which they possessed, from having Welsh judges sitting in that House. He had no doubt, indeed, that such a surrender would serve very considerably to advance the character of his majesty's ministers, and he was as anxious as any man that that character should stand high in public estimation. At an early period of the reign of Geo. 2nd, it was enacted that the Scotch barons should not be allowed to sit in that House, and the English judges were also excluded. The judges then both of England and Scotland being prohibited from sitting in that House, he could not see upon what ground the Welsh judges should be allowed to sit there. Another objection to the present system of the Welsh judges was, that they were allowed to practise as barristers in this part of the kingdom; and thus a suitor on the Chester circuit had an opportunity of ascertaining, perhaps of prepossessing the mind of the judge who was to try his cause. On these grounds he should support the motion. Mr. Allen said, that the hon. colonel, who was not, he believed, a Welshman, although he represented a Welsh county, had given a representation of the opinions of his constituents and neighbours upon this question very different from that which he (Mr. Allen) should give of those entertained in that part of the country with which he was himself connected. With respect to the petition which had been presented recently from Carmarthen, |