915] STATE TRIALS, 32 CHARLES II. 1650.-Trial of J. Tasborough and A. Price Just. Pemberton. He hath carried himself always well. L. C. J. Yes truly, I know nothing to the contrary: And pray tell upon your oath, and tell the truth: Did Mr. Tasborough, when he read the note, ask of you, Is this true? Did he inquire of you, Whether or no you were really a convert, and, Whether your sorrow and repentance were true? Dugdale. No, he never did. L. C. J. Did he ask you, If you could do it with a safe conscience? Dugdale. No, nothing of conscience was ever named in it. L. C. J. Did he ask you, Whether it was true? Dugdale. He never named truth or falsehood: It was only to get me over to retract what I had said. Just. Pemberton. What is a temptation if this be not? L. C. J. Truly I ask this question, That/ world may see, we would find out the trut all the ways we can; for if we had bee citous with him, and asked him, Whe could do this safely, and with a good co and whether the matter of it were tr have gone a great way; but now Mr. Dugdale this upon his oath, was only to get him over to the Just. Pemberton. And ther is said against Mrs. Price is except that of the contriva giving his evidence agair subtle invention it was borough was in the b triving it, I cannot But she having cr be penned, he is as well as she. to undertake bribes she would have this note signed for, Pemberton. was at the council, and said Thompson, as to ask whether my be des Mr. Dugdale had read, Mr. Arney? does him this right, as Mr. Thompson. Do y Privy Seal before that; you upon, you should not rifles Justice Dolben. But I told you the e. y of speech fit r. Dugdale that he verton. You are an impudent ustice Dolben. Your mouth must be stopped, if you can use your tongue no better. Justice Jones. What would you ask him when he does come? Price. I have told my counsel. Mr. Sanders. She says she would ask him whether Mr. Dugdale did not offer him money to suborn him in this case. You are sworn al Mr. Justice Jones, I desire ready, Sir, are you not? I desire I may speak for myself. Mr. Sanders. Then pray answer the court this question, Did Mr. Dugdale at any time It is but reason she should offer you any money to take an oath, or give Perton. But I hope if she ask une questions she is not to be heard. only speak the truth. Wright. Offer me money? Mr. Sanders. Yes, you. Answer upon your Mr. Sanders. Or any thing else did he offer? Wright. No, my lord. He hath often sent to me to come, and when I did come, hath P. Whether you will take my evidence or said, I am glad you are come, I will do you as great a kindness; but he did not know of my Just. Dolben. We cannot believe you, nor coming, because his messengers had not met pray let me speak for myself. must the jury believe you, I will tell you that with me. Just. Pemberton. We tell you, you must not be heard. If you have any questions to ask, let your counsel propose them. Just. Dolben. If you apply to the jury, you are not to tell the matter of fact, but to prove at to them by witnesses. Price. I desire, however, I may be heard smyself. Mr. Sanders. Did any one on his behalf offer you any thing? Wright. No, I think not; if it was, I think Mr. Sanders. But did he, or did he not? Recorder. If Mrs. Price hath any more such Serj. Maynard. Sir, under your favour, bere STATE TRIALS, 32 CHARLES II. 1680.—for Susa son, as to ask whether my be does not know M› D Leon. We will do your client httle to your purpose, thing to be true that they had proved already. What had Mr. Tasborough to do, as if he were a judge of the proceedings of the court and witnesses? Nothing at all, under favour, but is a very ill man, and as such I hope shall be punished. hbeen a strange way of defence. Consider the council, and said day, but we as * I take it be say Justice Penderin. Tasborough puts you up a modes Justice Duoden. But I td you that M2. read, Mr. Attorney? the ovisent of with im Mr. Tompson. Do you desire e that; you upon, y u should not tride Justice Fenterion. We can't read them Lue: our th Justice Jones. Gentlemen, you of the jury; these two persons have been indicted for a very great offence. The indictment sets forth (that which we all know to be true) that Whitebread, and divers others, have been tried and condemned for a very execrable, hellish, Popish-Plot: That upon these indictments, Mr. Dugdale did give material evidence; but that, when some other of the conspirators were to be tried, and brought to punishment, these two persons did endeavour to make Mr. Dugdale absent himself, and retract his evidence. And not only so, when Harcourt was to be brought to his trial, (for whom it seems Mrs. Price had a parparticular kindness) but likewise it was endeavoured, he should be gone, and not give any further evidence at all, and he should have 000l. for a reward. This is the indictment. The inducement to the indictment (that is, - trials of the conspirators) is all well known: And there have been copies of the records produced, which have been inspected and perused by the counsel on the defendants parts; and they cannot say, but that the records agree with the matter in that respect: So that there is nothing at all but the bare matter of fact that you are to enquire into. I shall distinguish the persons: Mrs. Price, according to the evidence, hath gone through the whole charge of the indictment, and indeed, hath committed some further crimes than have been mentioned in the indictment. onder come to man in his life? a; if we should have aged him in another way, think, done our duty, and the ..u justly have reproved us for it; but is one thing, which if it had not been spoken, I would have held my peace: How is Tasborough concerned in the case? Divers have been questioned and executed for HighTreason, upon Mr. Dugdale's evidence; and First, it hath been proved to you by Mr. Dugafter such an execution, what is Mr. Tasbo-dale, That she did not only desire kindness to rough's duty? It hath been represented as if he had been persuaded by her, and drawn in that way, and he thinking that it was a falsity that had been sworn before, and that Mr. Dugdale repented of the injury he had done them, he should help to make this discovery. But what was he concerned? Did he go to a justice of peace, or any just way? Did he not contrive with the devil rather than the justice? 1,000l. must be paid to draw off a man, and corrupt him, to make him own himself perjured, in a truth that had been spoken. And this is not the first time that they have done it; for we remember the case of Reading very well. I shall say no more, but this, under favour, it is not well to say, That a man may persuade another to deny his testimony, that is nothing concerned in the case, in a case of this public nature especially, and for money too, that was never meant by the law, and I hope is not meant ever to be countenanced here. I hope the court will give that caution to all that hear it, as will discourage any attempts of this nature for the future. And that it shall not be enough to excuse it, for him to say he was persuaded, and thought his sorrow was real, and thereby to put the king's witnesses to prove that Harcourt, who was her ghostly Father; but she did design, as much as in her lay, that he should not come in at all to give evidence against him : This is proved by Mr. Dugdale, and another person that was by, that did hear Mrs. Price say, She would have him be kind to Mr. Harcourt, because he was her ghostly Father: withal tells you, That immediately after Dugdale did tell him, that she did persuade him he should absent himself, and not give evidence against Harcourt. She is likewise charged (as they are both). that she did treat with Mr. Dugdale for to retract all that he had said, to be gone, and to leave a paper behind him, which should signify, That there was trouble of mind upon him, and that he had done wrong in his testimony given against the Catholics: Therefore he would be gone, and leave a testimony of it in writing, when he was gone. And she provides for his security abroad, and he should have 1,000l. reward. Dugdale is the person with whom the first treaty was: But because he knew, and it was observed, that it was unsafe to deal with persons that was tampering with him in such a nature as this was, and upon a matter of this Just. Dolben. The very first thing you have said hath discredited all you would say; for if Mr. Dugdale (as you say) bad importuned you that you would do this thing for him, how comes it to pass that afterwards you should promise him a reward of 1,000l. and bring a gentleman to make it good. Price. I assure you, my lord, I never did. Just. Dolben. It is most apparent, Tasborough does not deny that. Price. But that which is the real truth, that you say must not be believed. Just. Pemberton. Did he solicit you to draw your Note? Price. Yes he did, upon the word of a christian. Just. Jones. You did confess that you did study it, and draw it yourself. it. Price. I did so, but he importuned me to do Just. Pemberton. How do you prove that? Price. I desire to know by what words I took off bis evidence at Harcourt's Trial. Just. Dolben. You desired him to be kind, because he was your confessor. Price. I desire to ask him the question, by what words it was. Just. Jones. Well, you may ask him, but it is little to the purpose. Can you remember the words, or the effect of the words that she spoke to you in the behalf of Harcourt? The night before his trial, I think it was. Dugdale. Yes, it was the night before, to desire me I would not be an evidence against him, in regard he was her ghostly father. Price. You know you came to me, Mr. Dugdale, and told me you rid post to town. Just. Pemberton. We must have no more of these interlocutory discourses. Dugdale. Mrs. Price, I would not do you the least injury in the world. Serj. Maynard. Mr. Justice Jones, I desire a word. Just. Jones. If you will produce any witnesses, do.-Price. I desire I may speak for myself. Just. Dolben. It is but reason she should speak for herself. Just. Pemberton. But I hope if she ask unreasonable questions she is not to be heard. Price. I only speak the truth. Just. Dolben. But we must not take your evidence of it, produce your witnesses. Just. Jones. If you have any to prove what you say, call them. Price. Whether you will take my evidence or not, pray let me speak for myself. Just. Dolben. We cannot believe you, nor must the jury believe you, I will tell you that before-hand. Just. Pemberton. We tell you, you must not be heard. If you have any questions to ask, det your counsel propose them. Just. Dolben. If you apply to the jury, you are not to tell the matter of fact, but to prove it to them by witnesses. Price. I desire, however, I may be heard myself. Just. Jones. If any thing hath been omitted by your counsel, which is material for your defence, and you have witnesses to prove it, they shall be called. Just. Pemberton. Mrs. Price, you must know the course of the court, and the way of evidence is, we are not to hear the persons indicted make long speeches to the court, or to the jury, or come with great confidence to deny the thing that is proved against them; if you have any thing material to say, we will hear you by your counsel; you must not trouble us. Price. My Lord, I have matter enough to say, but it cannot be heard. Mr. Sanders. We desire Wright may be called again. Just. Jones. To what purpose? Price. To prove that you, Mr. Dugdale, would suborn hun. Dugdale. Call him, if you will, if you can prove any practices upon me. Price. You have good practices we know: you are a man of excellent practices; you had need commend your practices. You know very well, Mr. Dugdale, that you told me you were perjured. Recorder. It is not language fit for you to give. Serj. Maynard. Is that liberty of speech fit to be given? She tells Mr. Dugdale that he said himself he was perjured. Justice Pemberton. You are an impudent Wright. No, my lord. Mr. Sanders. Or any thing else did he offer? Wright. No, my lord. He hath often sent to me to come, and when I did come, bath said, I am glad you are come, I will do you as great a kindness; but he did not know of my coming, because his messengers had not met with me. Mr. Sanders. Did any one on his behalf offer you any thing? Wright. No, I think not; if it was, I think it was in vain. Mr. Sanders. But did he, or did he not? Recorder. If Mrs. Price hath any more such witnesses, she may call them. Serj. Maynard. Sir, under your favour, here hath been a strange way of defence. Consider what a crime we are upon, and in what times we are. That there is a Plot of a very high and transcendant nature under question, that divers witnesses have been suborned, and persous tried in this place and convicted for it, it is undeniable. Now after trials for so high a crime in the most public way, here come Price and Tasborough; What to do? She indeed before, but both Tasborough and she afterwards, by rewards, and such temptations, endeavours to disgrace bis evidence; but there is not only that, but the great thing looked after by their party, was, the issue of it; upon this all the king's evidence were to be hanged. What hath been said is only to make a jest, and make the company merry, that there was a contract of marriage between them; but what will be the consequence of that? He that spoke it, has unquestionably proved the probability of our charge, we have made it probable, and he hath proved it; and the inference drawn by them is, She certainly did not tempt him, because she had an interest in him, which concludes very naturally. But then for the other, Mr. Tasborough, alderman Barker comes in, and swears the gentleman is a very honest man; I hope be did hear the evidence, and then I wonder how he could swear it; but do we come to prove whether he be an honest man in his life? It is not at all our question; if we should have offered to have disparaged him in another way, we had not, I think, done our duty, and the court would justly have reproved us for it; but there is one thing, which if it had not been spoken, I would have held my peace: How is Tasborough concerned in the case? Divers have been questioned and executed for HighTreason, upon Mr. Dugdale's evidence; and after such an execution, what is Mr. Tasborough's duty? It hath been represented as if he had been persuaded by her, and drawn in that way, and he thinking that it was a falsity that had been sworn before, and that Mr. Dugdale repented of the injury he had done them, he should help to make this discovery. But what was he concerned? Did he go to a justice of peace, or any just way? Did he not contrive with the devil rather than the justice? 1,000l. must be paid to draw off a man, and corrupt him, to make him own himself perjured, in a truth that had been spoken. And this is not the first time that they have done it; for we remember the case of Reading very well. I shall say no more, but this, under favour, it is not well to say, That a man may persuade another to deny his testimony, that is nothing concerned in the case, in a case of this public nature especially, and for money too, that was never meant by the law, and I hope is not meant ever to be countenanced here. I hope the court will give that caution to all that hear it, as will discourage any attempts of this nature for the future. And that it shall not be enough to excuse it, for him to say he was persuaded, and thought his sorrow was real, and thereby to put the king's witnesses to prove that thing to be true that they had proved already. What had Mr. Tasborough to do, as if he were a judge of the proceedings of the court and witnesses? Nothing at all, under favour, but is a very ill man, and as such I hope shall be punished. Justice Jones. Gentlemen, you of the jury; these two persons have been indicted for a very great offence. The indictment sets forth (that which we all know to be true) that Whitebread, and divers others, have been tried and condemned for a very execrable, hellish, Popish-Plot: That upon these indictments, Mr. Dugdale did give material evidence; but that, when some other of the conspirators were to be tried, and brought to punishment, these two persons did endeavour to make Mr. Dugdale absent himself, and retract his evidence. And not only so, when Harcourt was to be brought to his trial, (for whom it seems Mrs. Price had a parparticular kindness) but likewise it was endeavoured, he should be gone, and not give any further evidence at all, and he should have 1,000l. for a reward. This is the indictment. The inducement to the indictment (that is, the trials of the conspirators) is all well known: And there have been copies of the records produced, which have been inspected and perused by the counsel on the defendants parts; and they cannot say, but that the records agree with the matter in that respect: So that there is nothing at all but the bare matter of fact that you are to enquire into. I shall distinguish the persons: Mrs. Price, according to the evidence, hath gone through the whole charge of the indictment, and indeed, hath committed some further crimes than have been mentioned in the indictment. First, it hath been proved to you by Mr. Dugdale, That she did not only desire kindness to Harcourt, who was her ghostly Father; but she did design, as much as in her lay, that he should not come in at all to give evidence against him: This is proved by Mr. Dugdale, and another person that was by, that did hear Mrs. Price say, She would have him be kind to Mr. Harcourt, because he was her ghostly Father: withal tells you, That immediately after Dugdale did tell him, that she did persuade him he should absent himself, and not give evidence against Harcourt. She is likewise charged (as they are both) that she did treat with Mr. Dugdale for to retract all that he had said, to be gone, and to leave a paper behind him, which should signify, That there was trouble of mind upon him, and that he had done wrong in his testimony given against the Catholics: Therefore he would be gone, and leave a testimony of it in writing, when he was gone. And she provides for his security abroad, and he should have 1,000l. reward. Dugdale is the person with whom the first treaty was: But because he knew, and it was observed, that it was unsafe to deal with persons that was tampering with him in such a nature as this was, and upon a matter of this so, because there was such an acquaintance between them? Then, as to Mr. Tasborough: He indeed is not in the beginning of the design at all: There is no evidence against him for that part of the charge, That he should absent himself, and not give evidence against Harcourt. He comes not in at that time; nor can I perceive by Mr. Dugdale, that he had any acquaintance with him at all till the 12th of October; and he says he was but twice in his company. Now, gentlemen, what does Mr. Tasborough do? First, Dugdale is told by Mrs. Price, That a man of quality should come to him, and confirm all the promises she had made him. Tasborough does come to him, and tells him, he hath had some discourse with Mrs. Price, what she had proposed; and he is now come to make good and confirm, that all shall be effected that she had proposed to him. Ay! but it is supposed, that Mr. Tasborough is a very honest man, and a conscientious man, and does come for nothing in the world, but to persuade Mr. Dugdale to do the office of a christian; it was a charitable thing of him, to take off the scandal that was upon the innocent. But you do not hear him charge it upon Mr. Dugdale's conscience, that he had given a false evidence against any of those persons, nor urge him much to repent. But he must be gone, he must give no more evidence against the catho kind, he does acquaint persons of very great quality, as he swears, my lord of Shaftsbury, and two other persons: They do advise him that he should get some persons to be by when they should come to some further treaties concerning this business; and to that purpose he should hold up a correspondence, and condescend to a kind of agreement and compliance, that he might be able to have further testimony to confirm his evidence. Whereupon Dr. Chamberlain and his servant are placed in a closet in Mr. Dugdale's chamber, in such a place, that they might hear what was discoursed in the chamber; in comes Mrs. Price, they being in the closet. Mr. Dugdale and she discoursed about the business so loud, that Dr. Chamberlain and his servant (as both of them tell you) heard their discourse upon it: The question was asked and put to Mrs. Price: Mrs. Price, I hope you know you are the person that first moved this intrigue; it began from you, and not from me: And this was confest by her. So that you have in confirmation of Mr. Dugdale, the testimony both of Dr. Chamberlain, and of his servant to that part of the charge against her. And withal, it is added, not only that he was to go beyond sea, to retract what evidence he had given; but likewise it was thought expedient he should come over again, and swear against all the rest of the evidence that had been given or should be given for the king. And when it was said by Mr.lics: And, what if he do comply with this deDugdale, What will it avail you, if I do retract my evidence. There is Mr. Oates and Mr. Praunce to testify the same thing: She said, No matter for that, if we get you on our side for the Catholic cause to be our friend, we shall be sure to baffle all they can say or do; and we shall not only save the Catholics, but turn the plot upon the heads of the Protestants, and all the king's witnesses shall be hanged. That you may remember was testified by some of the witnesses. Mrs. Price deals frequently with Mr. Dugdale to this purpose. Dugdale, that he might know (and it is very like with that honest intention, and no other, he did it) and that he might discover the bottom of this business, tells her, This is a thing of dangerous consequence, and it is fit that I have better security than your promise to this 1,000l. I will have some substantial person that shall come and confirm what you promise, and thereupon she tells him, he should have a substantial person brought, and he should have thanks from very great persons, naming the duke of York; for he it was, as they said, that would take care to protect him, and procure a pardon for him. Now gentlemen, this is the evidence against Mrs. Price. In defence of this what doth she offer, but that she hath been acquainted with Mr. Dugdale, and there hath been great familiarity between them. If there had not been such a familiarity, would there have been such an intrigue? Is this a matter to be communicated to a stranger? If there were a doubt before, whether there were this contrivance, does not this give us a better assurance that it was sire? Then he tells him he shall have a reward : What reward? 1,000l.; which was made known before, and protection, and pardon, and security: And he comes to him in the duke of York's name, to enforce it the more strongly upon him, and make him do it; whereas, indeed, the duke of York (as he himself and Mrs. Price have since confessed) never knew any thing at all of the business. Now, gentlemen, to move by honest christian means, any one that hath done an injury of any sort to repentance, and contrition, and recantation, that is a very good thing; but to do it with promise of a reward of 1,000l. can't be justified: what way is there to insinuate into any person an intention of doing a mischief, but such a way as this? will any one come to another, and say, forswear yourself; whereas you know such a thing to be true, swear it to be false, or retract the evidence you have given about it, and I will give you a 1,000l.? No, but serve the Catholic cause; a great many have suffered, and by your testimony; retract, begone, be secure, you shall have a certainty, that you shall be secure in another kingdom; or else you shall have it in a Protestant family; though neither that protestant, nor any protestant was named. Is not this a bait to tempt a man to all the villainy in the world? If 1,000l. be offered, who can resist? Such people as these are will not easily resist such a temptation. But Mr. Tasborough is a very honest man in his life and conversation; he produceth those that tell you his reputation is good, and the like. |