Pris. I will ask him as many questions as I think reasonable; and when, my lord, I do desire time, and he cannot tell the times, he must tell me so.

L. C. J. Mr. Oates, answer my lord what questions he asks you.

Oates. I will tell my lord Castlemaine as near as I can remember, my lord.

Pris. Mr. Oates, when was it you came over?

Oates. Really it was some few days before the consult.

Pris. How many days do you think? Outes. Really I cannot remember. L. C. J. I suppose you have your memorials.-Outes. Really, my lord, no.

L. C. J. Have you any thing more to ask? Pris. Yes, my lord, a great many questions. Were you present, Mr. Oates, pray, at that consult, when I consented to the king's death? was you by?

Oates. I was present at the consult; but I do not charge you to be at the consult.

L. C. J. He asks you where it was he agreed

to it?

Oates. At Mr. Fenwick's chamber, I remember it was about seven or eight o'clock that we were going over Lincoln's- Inn-Fields. L. C. J. How long might you be at Fenwick's?

I

Oates. It was about eleven or twelve o'clock came away.

Pris. When you met me in Lincoln's-InnFields, was I in a coach or on foot, or was any body with me?

Oates. I cannot say whether your lordship had a man with you, or no :

L. C. J. Was there any body with him?
Oates. I did not take notice of that.

L. C. J. You were two hours together, pray let me ask you this question, What was your discourse about?

Oates. That was part of the discourse, my lord.

L. C. J. What? You have given us a very short account of it in four lines: you were two hours together, What was the main of your discourse about?

Oates. My lord, I will give you as plain as I can, the discourse at that time.

-L. C. J. Pray let us know what the main of your discourse was about.

Oates. One part of their discourse was about the revenues of their colleges, and how they had suffered by the French taking St. Omers, and what losses they had sustained by reason of the change of government by the conquest; for the crown of Spain had entailed on the college of St. Omers five or six hundred a year, for the maintaining the foundation of their house, er foundation rent, and it was taken away by reason of the conquest that France had made over the Spanish dominions there; and they were consulting how they should write to father La Chaise to be an instrument to move the French king to restore this annuity, that was a settlement entailed upon it.

L. C. J. How came you into this discourse? Outes. This was after the other discourse? L. C. J. How came you to discourse this af fair here in England?

Oates. I will tell your lordship as near as I can remember: when we met in Lincoln's-InFields, Mr. Langworth recommended me to my lord Castlemaine, and bade me take notice of him. I cannot say this is my lord Castlemaine, but this is that man I saw.

L. C. J. Did he call him by his name?

Oates. He told him that I was such a one, and that I was serviceable to them. And upon our way as we went to Mr. Fenwick's chamber, he enquired into the causes of my coming over so soon again, for he said I went over but last month. Said he, How came it to pass he came over so soon again? saith he, We wanted him to do some business for us. And there were more particulars of the transactions of the consult mentioned to my lord Castlemaine.

L. C. J. How did they bring in the particulars of that design?

Oates. This is as near as I can remember. L. C. J. How came they to talk of laying aside the king, and bringing in the Catholic religion?

Oates. My lord, after they had given an aocount of the transactions of the consult: this was one part of the consult.

LC. J. Pray how came they to bring it in,

in discourse?

Oates. My lord, they spake of the particuculars of it.

L. C. J. I wonder what introduced the particulars: was it to acquaint him with those particulars?

Oates. My lord, I have nothing to say to that; they were things so generally talked of by those of the Jesuitical party, that whenever they met, they scarce did talk of any thing else but of that, and so they did at this time.

L. C. J. Pray tell me the whole discourse, as you can remember, that relates to this time.

Oates. My lord, I have told your lordship we met with my lord Castlemaine in Lincoln's-InnFields. I have told you, my lord, that we went to Mr. Fenwick's; I have told you, my lord, that after some discourse (how it was intro. duced I cannot be positive, but as I can remember) they were speaking of my going over and coming again so soon, my going from the consult to St. Omer's and returning again into England so soon, and so one word brought in another.

L. C. J. Did you know then that my lord Castlemaine had ever heard of this matter before?

Outes. My lord, I do not know; but I am morally certain as to myself; but I cannot swear he did.

Att. Gen. Did he speak of it to him as a stranger to it?

L. C. J. Answer my brother's question, was the letter you had seen, before or after that discourse at Fenwick's?

Oates. My lord, that was after the consult. L. C. J. Then you know he did know of the design?

Oates. My lord, I think not of the particulars of the design.

L. C. J. That is, he knew of this design for the main. When you talk of the design, you always mean the consult.

Outes. No, my lord, when we say the consult, we mean what was agreed on ac that consult, not concerning these matters that were done six months before.

L. C. J. Mr. Oates, tell me, when you mention the design and the consult, do not you always mean the death of the king and the bringing in Popery?

Oates. Yes, my lord, but the terms are not convertible for, my lord, when we say the consult, there was something else done, my lord, at that consult which had not an absolute relation to the design; and of that I will give your lordship one instance, as the sending Father Cary to Rome, which they did in some three years.

L. Č. J Some trivial matters concerning their own government, but the thing you talk of the same consult and design.

Oates. When I speak of the word design, it was so taken among us, and so received by my lord Castlemaine.

L. C. J. How can you say it was so received by him?

Oates. Because he used the same word, and answered us according to our interpretation.

Justice Jones. My lord, he speaks of the design thus there was a design for the killing of the king, there was a design of the priests and fathers for it; but saith he, Afterwards there ' was a general consultation,' and this design came to be formed by this general consult, which my lord Castlemaine, as he thinks, had no knowledge of till the time they met together in Lincoln's-Inn fields, and afterward went and discoursed about it.

L. C. J. It is very fair, that he doth not know that my lord Castlemaine had any knowledge before the consult of this business; but, he says, ' The Design upon which the consult was, that he might know, which was to destroy the king, and bring in popery.' And he says, my lord Castlemaine did understand this word design in that sense they did; because he answered their letters according to their interpretation of it. How do you know he understood the word design in its utmost capacity as you understood it?

Oates. When we have our words, we have our keys whereby we understand them. But I will answer this question to the satisfaction of the gentlemen of the jury. My lord, he hath many times spoken in his letters of introducing the Popish religion, and annexed it to the word design of promoting the Catholic religion here in England.

L. C. J. Now methinks you have brought the word design to something else than killing the king.

Oates. Yes, my lord, the subversion of religion and the government.

L. C. J. Did he put in government? Did he talk of bringing in the Catholic religion, and altering the government?

Oates. No, my lord, I won't say that.

L. C. J. When we are examining concerning men's lives, we must be careful of their words in such matters.

Oates. One part of my evidence I have omitted, your lordship did ask me how I came to know my lord Castlemaine's hand. Mylord, sometimes we received letters from him subscribed Palmer, and sometimes subscribed Castlemaine, sometimes some other name which I may not remember, and they were generally received as from him. And I have seen, my lord, my lord Castlemaine write; for that night, as near as I remember, it was post-night. L. C. J. At Fenwick's chamber?

Oates. At Fenwick's chamber, and my lord Castlemaine did write a letter, subscribed it and sealed it, and I was fain to go to the ge-. neral post-house, it was so late.

Justice Jones. What, did he subscribe then? Oates. No, my lord, I saw no more than the superscription,

L. C. J. Then you did not see his name to it? Oates. No, my lord. My lord Castlemaine did ask, Why he had not answers to such and such letters? For several letters I had seen which were not of much moment.

L. C. J. I wish you had one that was of

Pris. You saw letters in Spain from me? Oates. Yes, I have seen letters in Spain that were from you.

Pris. Look you, Mr. Oates, pray let me ask you a question, you said this, That you did not know me when you met at the consult? Oates. What consult?

Pris. At Fenwick's chamber.

Oates. I did not know you at Wild-house.
Pris. There you met ine first?

Oates. There I met the prisoner at the bar. L. C. J. He says he did not know you at Wild-house, but he came to know you by Langworth in Lincoln's Inn-Fields, and then you went together to Fenwick's chamber.

Pris. Mr. Oates, Did not you say, that at Wild-house you did not know me, nor I you? L. C. J. He says he cannot tell whether you knew him or no, but he did not know you. Pris. Was I familiar with you? Oates. No, my lord.

Pris. Did I talk treason at Wild-house? Oates. It was the discourse of the day, but I do not remember every particular of the dis

course, but I remember what your opinion was concerning the rector of Liege and the

rector of Gant.

Pris. Was there any thing about killing the king at Wild-house?

Oates. Really, my lord, I cannot remember, I won't charge it there, because I am upon my oath; though I morally believe, as to myself, that there was discourse bad enough there.

Pris. Mr. Oates, Pray will you hear me? Then the acquaintance I had with you was by Mr. Langworth, and then we went that night to Fenwick's chamber, and there we staid very long, and there we had all this discourse? Oates. Yes.

Pris. Look, Mr. Oates, was there any body by besides Mr. Langworth and Mr. Fenwick? Oates. Really, my lord, I do not remember any body was by, unless a maid might come to fill a cup of drink or so.

Pris. Mr. Oates, pray, Mr. Oates, did you and I ever meet together after that time? Oates. Really, my lord, I cannot be exact

in that.

Pris. Did you never see me nor discourse with me after that time?

Oates. I cannot recollect myself as to that, I cannot remember.

L. C. J. He does not remember that ever be was with you afterwards.

Pris. You do not know whether ever I discoursed with you afterwards?

Oates. I do not remember. Pris. Very well, Mr. Oates: look you, sir, you do not remember that I ever had any discourse with you after that time; and no body was by but Mr. Fenwick and Mr. Langworth? Oates. As I remember.

Pris. Was not there another priest there? Oates. There is nobody occurs to my memory.

Pris. Mr. Oates, you brought me letters from Spain?

Oates. I brought a letter from Spain directed to you in 1677.

Pris. Was I in town or out of town? Oates. I delivered it to the provincial. Pris. You went over to Liege; did not you see me there?

Oates. No, my lord, I did not see you there, I only went to wait upon a gentleman that was a priest afterwards, that went to take orders. Pris. Did you not see me at Liege? Oates. No, my lord.

Pris. You were at Liege, did you stay there? Oates. I lay there one night.

Alt. Gen. Have you any thing to ask, my lord?

Pris. Presently, my lord.

Justice Jones. It is very reasonable, my lord should question you. You own him to be the lord Castlemaine when was it you did first discover this business concerning my lord Castlemaine?

Oates. My lord, I did discover my lord Castlemaine to be in the Plot the last sessions of the long parliament, and I accused my lord

Castlemaine this Trinity-term was 12 months, and my lord Castlemaine was committed: for when Mr. Dangerfield came in and accused my lord Castlemaine, I brought a charge a second time against my lord Castlemaine.

Justice Jones. Did you discover all this then?

Oates. I did charge him for having an hand in the design in general.

Justice Jones. To the parliament ?
Oates. Yes, to the parliament.

Pris. You say, when I assented to the king's death in Fenwick's chamber, that I said I should now find a time to be revenged?

Outes. Pray, my lord, do not put me to mention such reflecting evidence.

Pris. When you were before the king, you did in pursuance of this speak of a divorce.

Oates. My lord, I will give evidence as to that, if that my lord comes to be indicted for his priesthood.

L. C. J. My lord may ask what questions he shall think fit.

Att. Gen. My lord says he has said it, and what he said in another place he is not to treat

now of.

in

Pris. Suppose I can prove him an ill man any place, is not that fit to be spoken of here? Since he hath brought the king upon the stage, and since he hath accused me before the king and your lordships of a divorce, I ask him whether he saw it?

Oates. I will tell your lordship what I said as to the divorce: I heard it discoursed of generally among the fathers beyond sea, and this was some other part of the discourse at Wild-House; and I heard my lord Castlemaine say that he had been at a great charge to carry on that business of the divorce. Pris. At Wild-House?

Oates. At Wild-house. Now, my lord, I took no notice of it because it was not my business. But, my lord, after that there was a priest's chamber that was searched, and there. was the whole Case stated; now what is become of the state of that Case, my lord, I cannot tell.

L. C. J. By whom was that Case stated? Oates. There was a letter found, whereby my lord Castlemaine should have the matter

* The prisoner was the husband of Barbara Villiers, the first mistress to Charles the Second after his Restoration. Indeed according to Oldmixon (1 Hist. of England during the reigns of the Royal House of Stuart, 471) it was currently reported, that on the very night of the king's coming to London he took her from her husband.

In 1661 the husband was created baron Palmer and earl of Castlemaine in Ireland (of which honours, it has been said, that he was not very proud) and, in 1670, the wife was created baroness Non-such, countess of Southampton and duchess of Cleveland, in England. See the Proceedings in the House of Commons against lord Castlemaine, A. D. 1689.

directed in order to the carrying on the divorce that was to be between him and his wife Barbara.

Pris. Did not you tell the king that you saw the divorce in Strange's hand?

Oates. My lord, I will tell you this, I gave an account to the king that I saw in Strange's hand an account of a divorce that was between my lord Castlemaine and Barbara duchess of Cleveland.

Recorder (sir George Jefferies). My lord, if he ask too many questions that do not relate to this matter, it is impossible to give an account of every particular.

Pris. My lords, I humbly submit this case. Recorder. Ask him what you said to such a man upon the 9th of August was twelve-month, must he give an account?

L. C. J. He must say he does not know. Recorder. Indeed it is reasonable that my lord Castlemaine should ask him sorue questions, and that Mr. Oates should give him an

account.

Att. Gen. My lord, will you give me leave to speak? If he may ask questions about such foreign matters as this, no man can justify him

self.

L. C. J. This is not so mighty remote but use may be made of it.

Att. Gen. If he should ask whether he were such a day at such an house, and tell him yes, and mistake the day; any man may be catched thus.

Pris. How can a man be catched in the truth?

Att. Gen. My lord Castlemaine may, if he can, catch him in any thing he gives in evidence here.

Pris. My lord, if your lordship over-rule me, I will say no more. Mr. Attorney says I come to catch him, I confess I do.

Att. Gen. You should not ask him foreign questions.

L. C. J. He asks a plain question; why do you labour so much that he should not ask, whether he had seen the divorce? My lord Castlemaine I have asked the question for you whether or no he said he had seen the divorce? and he does not remember whether he said so or no.

Att. Gen. My lord, I think, with with your lordship's leave, that he is not bound to answer questions that are not to the evidence.

L. C. J. If so be he would come to make application, it may be well enough.

Att. Gen. I say it for the method of the evidence, my lord, that I would not have these excursions.

Pris. I desire your lordship that I may say out what I have to say. I say this, that no man in the world that speaks truth can be catched, neither will Mr. Attorney suffer me to catch him.

Att. Gen. I say you have liberty to catch him in any thing that doth belong to the evidence.

Pris. I come to shew you the fitness of it

to this affair. He comes and tells you, among other consults, of Wild-house, and my meeting him in Lincoln's-Inn-Fields, the recommendations of Mr. Langworth, and going to Fenwick's chamber, where we talked of altering the government, and my assenting to kill the king; and since you have brought the king upon the stage, I will refresh your memory a little; since you talk of revenging myself, look you if you did not mention a divorce to the king and also to my lord chief justice.

Att. Gen. My lord, you are under a mis take.

Pris. Pray give me leave, Mr. Attorney. Att. Gen. You make such excursions into foreign matters.

Pris. Mr. Oates, you did say you saw a divorce. I ask you whether you saw a divorce, and where; or whether you said so?

L. C. J. He says, he does not remeinber he said so.

Oates. I do not remember whether I said so or no, my lord, I have it down, but indeed I did not set my thoughts a-work.

Att. Gen. He hath given you an answer that may satisfy you.

Just. Raymond. He hath papers wherein he bath entered Memorandums to refresh his me mory, but these papers he hath not by him. L. C. J. Then he may say, he hath not. Att. Gen. That he hath already, my lord. L. C.J. Have you any more to say Pris. I have, my lord, if you will give me leave to write down two words.

Pris. Mr. Oates, you told my lords the Judges that I did say, I was at great expence about a divorce?- Oates. Yes.

Pris. That is very well, Mr. Oates.
Att. Gen. Call Mr. Dangerfield.

Dr. Oates was going out of the court.

Pris. May Mr. Oates go out of the court?
Court. Yes, yes.

Oates. I will be within call, my lord.
Pris. I only submit it to your lordships, whe-
ther or no a witness may go out of the court?
Oates. I will stay then.

Att. Gen. Swear Mr. Dangerfield.
Pris. Pray stay.

L. C. J. Why so?

Pris, Here I am a prisoner, my lords, and submit it to your lordships, whether or no Mr. Dangerfield, who hath had the censure of this court, may be a witness? Whether or no counsel shail shew reasons to your lordship, whether he may speak or no?

Justice Jones. You must shew your exceptions that you have against him,

Pris. My exception is this: that he was convicted of felony, that he broke prison, and was outlawed upon it. Besides this, my lord, he is a stigmatick, hath stood in the pillory, and was burnt in the hand. Now I humbly beseech your lordships, that you will be pleased to hear what my counsel can say and then, my lords, if you over-rule, I shall give place with all my heart.