done in time of war, no reason why in time of peace. Now the continuation is without privy seal, or order of the privy council; though formerly it was otherwise. As for Popery, there was a Proclamation, but sees not that matter at all mended. At this time, few men doubt the intention to make peace, to fetch off the French with flying colours, and to dissolve the present confederacy. These are the present counsels, and if they be desperate, would not make the last counsels worse than the first. The Commons refuse a Supply for the taking off the Anticipations upon the Revenue.] The house having resumed, sir Ch. Harbord reported from the committee of the whole house, That they had taken that part of his majesty's Speech into consideration, which relates to a Supply for taking off the Anticipations upon his Revenue; and had agreed (172 to 165) a Vote to be reported to the house; and humbly moved from the said committee, that the house would again resolve into a committee of the whole house on Friday next, to consider the other part of his maj.'s Speech relating to a Supply for building more ships. Which Vote of the committee was as followeth ; viz. “That it is the opinion of the committee, not to grant his majesty any Supply for the taking off the Anticipations upon his majesty's Revenue." Resolved, "That this house doth agree with the committee, that it is the opinion of this house, not to grant his majesty any Supply for the taking off the Anticipations upon his majesty's Revenue." "When the king's Speech came under consideration, a demand was made on one side, and allowed as reasonable on the other, of a scrutiny into those Debts and Charges, which the people were called upon to make good: the result of which was, that it appeared, the expence of the late two years war with the Dutch amounted, in the whole, to 2,040,000l. and that the money given by parliament; what arose from the Customs, which ought to have been appropriated; what was gained by prizes; and the 800,000 Patacoons given by the Dutch; at least amounted to 3,040,000l. Whence it was inferred, that, instead of the king's being run almost a million in debt by the war, as those who took upon them to answer for the court alledged, he might have been a million in pocket. It was, upon these principles, farther observed, that, by the illegal stop of the Exchequer payments, the whole of the Revenue, as well as the Customs before-mentioned, came clear into the exchequer, and was more than sufficient to answer all the reasonable expences of the crown; those of the government not much exceeding 700,000l. per ann, whereas the clear income of the Revenue amounted to at least 1,600,000l. From the whole it was more than insinuated, that the Debts of the crown arose rather from the extravagancies of the court, than the necessities of the government; and some under Debate on Lord Cavendish's posting Mr. Howard.] Oct. 20. Information was given the house, that lord Cavendish had caused a Paper to be posted up at Whitehall-Gate, and Westminster-hall, by his footman, to this effect "That Thomas Howard who subscribed the Letter, was a coward." It was said, that the occasion of this was from some reports that lord Cavendish had heard, that Mr. Howard should say, "That his lordship knew of the Letter some time before the parliament met, and did not call Mr. Howard to an account for it.” Mr. Sacheverell complained on lord Cavendish's behalf, but the compiler could not well hear him. Mr. Secretary Williamson gave this account. He was commanded by the king to cause the earl marshal to enquire into the business. Mr. Frowde, son to sir Philip Frowde, was said to have taken down the said posted-up Paper, who was not to be found. He came to him, and he asked him, whether he had any quarrel with lord Cavendish? He confessed the taking down the paper, but denied the words he should say of lord Cavendish, &c. Then Wil|liamson told him, he was cominanded by the king, not to farther engage lord Cavendish. Frowde said, he had no quarrel with lord Cavendish, and what he did was out of respect to him.' Sir Tho. Lee. If this gentleman had no quarrel with lord Cavendish, perhaps that lord may have with him. In this kind of paper-war, he fears family quarrels ; therefore would have some gentlemen propose a way to extricate you out of the thing. Mr. Swynfin. The honour of the house is to be preferred before any particular member. took to demonstrate, that, by an honest and careful management, both his majesty's Expences might be sufficiently supplied, and his Debts discharged, out of his present Revenue, in the course of a few years: adding, that no parliament was obliged to pay the king's debts, by taxing the subject: that such precedents were dangerous, and might be fatal: for if once a house of commons grew over-prodigal, and a court but moderately frugal, the parliaments of England would become as insignificant as those of France. Either these facts and considerations had such weight with the house, or the majority, contrary to the opinion that is generally entertained of them, were so little under the influence of the court, that they resolved not to grant any Supply to his majesty for the taking off the Anticipations of his Revenue. In comparison with the lavishness and extravagancies of later times, these things have all the air of patriotism and public spirit; but if Mr. North, and all the other writers on the side of the prerogative deserve any credit, we are to conclude, that this excess of many do not arise from any tenderness to the public, but a settled resolution to distress the king." Ralph. * Mr. Grey. When quarrels may arise from persons to families, knows no way to prevent it, but by laying bands on them both. In the mean time, would have an engagement of no farther proceeding in the matter from this noble lord. Mr. Vaughan. In this case, it is regular to send to the lord keeper, to take security of them both for quiet deportment. Mr. Garroway. You have declared the Paper to be scandalous, and fears it a little too hasty to put the thing to another way of decision. Mores, that, though you have appointed a day for Mr. Howard's appearance, it may be a shorter day, lest it should reflect, in consequence, on every individual man in the house, and the whole house. Sir Ch. Harbord thinks that what Frowde did was a very safe thing, and he not to blame. Believes that no man dares attack a member Frowde has engaged, and Howard also, who will be here to-morrow. If you will have him come, he will, though he should die at the door. The Speaker. All will bear him witness bow tender he is of the honour of the house. The best way to secure your members is, not to suffer them to do injuries; and he must acquaint you with what he knows. He knows that lord Cavendish posted Mr. Howard for a coward. Col. Birch. By how much the more lord Cavendish is esteemed here, you cannot do a better thing than showing justice. To come rightly to the bottom, the house must know what the Paper contains. Do right within doors, and you will stop wrong the better without doors. Sir. Philip Warwick, notwithstanding his great respect to lord Cavendish, yet would not have you adjourn, till some order be taken Mr. Stockdale. Perhaps neither Howard nor Cavendish owns the Papers. Mr. Swynfin. It is as plain as any thing can be; you need not put the question to lord Cavendish; but the matter is, what you should do for your own honour to prevent quarrels. Col. Birch. Is of opinion that lord C. has done a great fault, being enjoined by the house to do nothing of tendency to farther quarrel. Sir Edw. Baynton. Lord Cavendish has heard the debate. Would have the Speaker ask him, whether he has any thing to say to it, and then withdraw. Mr. Garroway would preserve your privilege to the loss of his hand. Would have it understood that this commitment is not in order to lord C.'s coming to the bar on his knees. Mr. Powle. The commitment of your mem ber is not for his confinement, but security, therefore would have him confined till farther order. Mr. Vaughan. Commitment is not for his security, but punishment. Mr. Garroway. His commitment then must be solely for breach of Privilege, and on no other account. Mr. Boscawen. You may proceed without asking lord Cavendish, whether he has any thing to say. He may possibly say something to his own prejudice. Col. Titus. Any man that knows his conversation, knows his obligations to lord C.'s family. He believes if lord C. had any thing to say, he would have done it before now, being present at the debate. Having said nothing in his own justification, and having proceeded in what he did after your order, therefore would have him committed. Sir Tho. Lee. The foundations of the house you are not masters of, to dispense with, as reading of a bill three times. You must ask lord C. what he has to say for himself. Mr. Garroway. He is not obliged to make any answer, if you ask him. But, in voting him to commitment, without asking him, you take away the greatest liberty you have. Sir Rob. Carr. Since lord C. has been present at the debate, you have broken your order, as much as you can already; therefore would not ask him any quetions. Mr. Sawyer. In all this debate, you are upon matter of enquiry only, and then the member may be present to give you information of fact, but when you give an opinion, he must withdraw. Some members have told you of a Paper, but none that lord C. wrote it. Sir John Ernly. Your member is at liberty to answer, or not. Possibly his answer may be as much as his life may be worth. The Speaker then said. to lord Cavendish, "The house has been informed that you have broken the privilege of the house, and would know what you have to say before you withdraw." Lord Cavendish. He shall ever have great respect to the privilege of this house, and shall be satisfied with what the house shall determine concerning him.-And withdrew. Col. Birch. If any man has any thing to say, why this lord should not be secured, let him speak; and, in the next place, Where? He moves for the Tower. Mr. Garroway. In Ioward's case you sent to him, to know whether he owned the paper, or no; who returned you a dissatisfactory answer; in the mean time, you obliged this lord not to proceed in the business. You are informed that he has set up a Paper; you have asked him what he has to say; he has given you no answer; therefore for that would send him to the Tower. Mr. Sawyer. Sir John Fagg was sent to the Tower, for proceeding in the lords house, after this house had possessed themselves of his busi ness. And for lord C. to proceed, whilst the matter was depending in this house, is a breach of Privilege. Sir Eliab Harvey. Lord C. has not broken promise, for that lasted not till Monday, but the matter being under the house's cognizance is the thing. Sir Tho. Meres. Breach of order is of large sense in privilege, but it is a less word than breach of privilege, and would have it run so in the commitment. Mr. Sucheverell. Would have the commitment for being charged with the Paper, and giving the house no satisfactory answer. The Order was read, viz. "That lord Cavendish and sir Tho. Meres be enjoined not to prosecute any quarrel against Mr. Howard, or to send, or accept, any challenge in order thereto, without acquainting the house." Col. Titus. Lord C. in having said nothing for himself, satisfies him, that he put up the Paper, and in that he has broken the Order of the house, and for that would have him committed to the Tower. Ordered, "That lord Cavendish be sent to the Tower, for his breach of the privilege of this house in prosecuting a quarrel against Mr. Howard, whilst the matter was depending before the house; and that the Speaker do issue ost his warrant to the serjeant to convey lord Cavendish to the Tower, and deliver him to the lieutenant, there to remain till farther orders." Oct. 22. In a grand committee on the building more Ships; sir Ch. Harboard in the chair. Resolved, "That it is the opinion of the committee, that 20 Ships of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Rate, shall be built with all convenient speed," which was agreed to by the house. This day, Lord Cavendish having sent a Petition to the house, acknowledging his Breach of Privilege, and craving pardon, was ordered to be discharged from his imprisonment in the Tower. Oct. 23. Resolved, 1. "That it is the opinion of the committee, that all the Forces that are, or shall be, in the service of the French king, contrary to his majesty's late Proclamation, shall be taken to be contemners of his majesty's royal authority, and opposers of the interest of their country 2. That the lords concurrence be desired to this Vote. 3. That a Bill be brought in to enforce the Proclamation with penalties." Debate on lord Cavendish's being challenged.] Oct. 25. Mr. Howe complains, that whilst we are about the nation's business, we should be subjected to Challenges. He hears that lord Cavendish has been challenged. Mr. Russel gives an account of his suspicion of some such thing, by Mr. Francis Newport's coming to lord Cavendish's house, on Sunday morning last; which occasioned him to find out lord C. and not to leave him till he had acquainted the duke of Ormond with it, who told the king of it, and Mr. Newport was secured. Sir John Coventry. It seems, there is great encouragement from great persons to affront this lord. The quarrel is not against lord C. but the whole house. Some course must be taken, or we shall be hectored by every lifeguard-man, and be obliged to fight him. Is informed that a lawyer of the Temple should say, It is a pretty story this of lord C. and Mr. Howard; the lord had the Paper 3 weeks before the sitting of the parliament, and complained only at the opening of the parliament, to hinder the king's business.' (And named him,) Mr. Sawyer, of this house, who said it, in a coffee house, to sir Tho. Eastcourt, a member, in the hearing of one Mr. Bradbury, a lawyer, and Philips, a stationer near Temple Bar. Mr. Sawyer finds that he is the person that, you are informed, should have said something of lord C. He was asked by lord C. about it, and told him he said no such words: but some accidental discourse, he said, was rumoured about town, that the Paper was abroad a month before the parliament sat. He never said the words alleged: but will tell you something: since that some persons have been abroad, to enquire and raise an accusation against him. As for that of hindering the king's business,' he never said it; nor could it be the consequence of any thing he said. Sir Philip Harcourt desires that Mr. Bradbury may be summoned, to hear what he can say. Sir Tho. Lee would not have you enquire into coffee-house discourse. Your member plainly denies it, and you can have no advantage by farther enquiry. But if any such thing as a Challenge be, it is fit for your enquiry, and the person that did it should be made a severe example of. The king and you have made enquiry, and any body that dares to concern himself is worthy your farther enquiry. Yourselves are more concerned than lord C. and would have severe enquiry into it. The Speaker. Has not yet heard that the house has been informed that there was a challenge. Mr. Russel only told you of the presumption of a quarrel. Lord Cavendish. Mr. Newport was with him on Sunday morning, but cannot say he brought him a challenge. Mr. Howe. The king sent to secure Mr. Newport, and no question but there was a challenge. Mr. Hale. Lord C. is not forward, nor wil ling, to tell you of a challenge. His own inclination possibly may induce him that The Speaker would have it referred to the committee of privileges. way. Sir Rd. Temple. It is hard to put it upon lord C. whether he had a challenge sent him, or not. Sir Tho. Littleton moves that, by reason Mr. Howard is to be here to-morrow, you would have Mr. Newport here also. Sir Nich. Carew is not for delays. More challenges may be sent us at this rate. Sir Scroope Howe would have Mr. Atkins | taining provoking language, posted up by the sent for also, who is concerned in the challenge. Ordered, "That Mr. Newport and Mr. Atkins be summoned forthwith to attend the house." Col. Birch. Calling any thing in question that the house has done, is calling the honour and dignity of the house in question. When the house punished lord Cavendish-and any man to question what you have done, is high presumption, and would consider it. Sir Tho. Lee expected that Birch would have concluded his premises, with some remedy for these things. Desires he would tell you. J Col. Birch. Though some body else is more fit for it than he, yet he shall move, • That whoever shall call in question what this house does, shall be punished as disturbers of the peace of the nation, and privilege of parliament.' Mr. Garroway. The laws already are severe, and he would be upon even terms with such kind of men as life-guard-men, that if we defend ourselves against such as have no estates, we may not forfeit ours that have. Sir Tho. Clarges. As it is proposed, it is too general. Lord C. having done something in breach of privilege of this house, and been punished for it, we ought to do equally with the rest. We are trustees for the people of England; their honour and fortune are in our hands; and for persons to undertake to censure us, would have their punishment more particular. Mr. Waller. They that will fight against king, lords, and commons, (against law) will fight with any of us. In France there are edicts against Duels, but that will stand with arbitrary government only. Would have a committee named to prevent this present mischief. Mr. Swynfin. What the Speaker repeated was not to the question proposed. It is a vain thing to put a question, that any man without doors shall not speak against what we do. It is out of question. No man doubts it. But what you are to do in the matter before you, betwixt lord C. and Mr. Howard, to prevent farther quarrels, in this business, highly reflective upon the house. As yet you have had no answer from Mr. Howard, and in the interval you hear every day of Challenges. You are to do all you can to put a stop to these things. Mr. Williams. There being an assault made upon a member, it is necessary that some provision should be made against promotion of such assaults. Sees no law more for members than other men. In such provocations as these, would have one. Some members retired to draw up an Order according to the debate, which was posted up at Westminster-hall gate, and the Inns of Court. and was as follows: "Forasmuch as this house, being informed of certain Papers, con lord Cavendish, a member of this house, did inflict a punishment upon him, by committing him to the Tower; and whereas they are informed, that, notwithstanding such their care and justice, some persons have presumed to call the said business in question; and, from occasion or pretence of those papers, to give out threatening words, or send Challenges, or provoking papers, to the said members of this house, or others, to be communicated to him; this house doth declare, that if any person whatsoever shall begin or prosecute any quarrel upon that account, or upon any matter or thing any way relating thereunto, he shall be esteemed a disturber of the public peace, and a contemner of the justice and privilege of this house; and shall be proceeded against accordingly." Mr. Williams proposes, that if any person fight a Duel, he be reckoned incapable of pardon. Sir Wm. Coventry. A gentleman said, That the king had taken notice of it, and the persons were under confinement.' Finds lord C. here: would know what engagement he has made to the king. Mr. Howe. The message from the king to lord C. was, That he should not send nor receive any challenge from Mr. Howard, nor any man else.' Sir Wm. Coventry. If this came from the king, believes it will not fail of its success. What he rises for, was to prevent what he hopes is prevented, and if so, the king to have thanks from you for his care of our member, and to implore bis farther protection. Sir Rd. Temple. The great occasion of Duels is, that the law gives not remedy proportionable to injuries received. In France a strict course is taken to repair men in their honour, wherein the law is defective: as it is in some things men highly esteem, as affrontive words. Ordered, “That a Bill be brought in to prevent Duels, and provocations to Duels." Debate on the State of the Nation-A Dissolution proposed.] In a grand committee on the State of the Nation, sir John Trevor in the chair: Sir Tho. Meres would have you consider the impiety and corruption of manners, and the protestant religion established by law. Next, cents falling. This is not new matter, but records extant; it is a parliamentary way. The poverty of the nation, and how to increase its riches, is always one head, in considering the State of the Nation: prevent a consumption and general fears of the nation: wounds are not to be cured without being searched: if they are skinned over only, and not searched, they break out into blotches and boils. God give a blessing to what you are about! Sir Harbottle Grimstone knows not how he shall please other men, but would have one ingredient: an application to the king to set a period to this parliament, and to allow us some time to pass bills now on the anvil, for the good of the nation. But would not bound the king. There is a great mischief in the length of this parliament, as if there were no parliament. A Standing Parliament is as inconvenient as a Standing Army. Would address the king, &c. Sir John Birkenhead. God Almighty has put a period to half of the first men of this parliament, by removes and death. Hopes he shall never see a Rump again. But when he sees sons and brothers of those, who were undone by the Rebellion, and paid so dear for loyalty, put and thrust out to have a new set, he declares he is afraid of a Dissolution, be canse God is his witness, he is afraid the next will be worse. [Laughed at.] Would have gentlemen consider the new and the old. The kingdom so weak, is it time to make it weaker by dissolution of this parliament? Cannot but think that the end of this parliament will be the beginning of confusion. be given to the country? It is said that rivers run into the sea, but that ebbs and flows, but this of giving money flows and never ebbs. In his country, they are selling bread to buy bacon, but fears that, at this rate, we shall be reduced to water. As we have given without measure, so we have without method. In the rolls of H. iv. Grievances precede Aid, but at the opening a session now, Money is the thing asked, and we have done it without computation. 1st James, there was a solemn protestation in parliament, that they could not give Supply, till a commutation for Grievances, and to go home and consult their electors whether they deserved Supply; but now we give without that. It is said, 'prepare your grievances.' But it is not a commutation; by that protestation the king is obliged by his coronation oath. We are not obliged to give money for it. Observes it was said the other day, We are not to give money of courtesy; it is matter of right. At this rate, the commons will be in the condition of deans and chapters; a congè d'elire their bishop, for form's sake only, sent for and asked. Finds not, in all this parliament, money denied when asked, and now, in 14 years time, it may be a precedent upon us for futurity and posterity; therefore let us deny it now, for precedent's sake. The king is willing to enter into a strict correspondence with us, and will relieve our necessities; as he tells us his wants, so we are to tell him the necessity of the country. Our duty to the king is to remove the country's fears and jealousies. Let us leave some records behind us, that we are true representatives of the people. Sir Tho. Lee cannot think the matter moved proper at this time. Is one of those that think this parliament may have good effect. Perhaps he is one of those that hope better of this parliament than, it may be, of the rest that come after. Would have one gentleman from our side of the house that can say, rents are improved, that has no other way of support. Sees no other cause that wool sells not, though after the rot, unless that money is crept into a few hands, and then you must expect rents to fall every day. And money is a commodity, as well as other things, and the engrossment of it into one hand governs trade. Would make some representation of your poverty, and why you comply not now, and likewise the sums we have given the king this parliament: tells the story of lord treasurer Salisbury's showing king James a great heap of money he had given away, &c. By his skill a great deal of money was saved. If you show the king what you have given (he fears the remembrance of it is out of mind) as a reason why money runs not round, hopes that will give full satisfaction in our non-compliance with his desires. Hopes the effect may be, that trade may be bettered, and money circulate, that we may be better able to give for the future. Is afraid, by the sums that are asked, that the king sees not how poor we are in the country, but how rich in other places. Would have him advised by the poor as well as the rich. Mr. Williams looks into titles of Acts under that of aid.' Finds the preambles and arguments still to be necessity.' The same thing, though in other phrases. But what is become of all this money? Possibly accounts may have been kept, but he has scen none. Were it possible to give as much as has been given, may we not be told still that the king is not at ease, and there is a necessity, and if the king be not supplied, extremities must be used?' This frightens him. So he would be gladly told, when there will be an end of Anticipations; when, of giving. What account can Sir Lionel Jenkins. To the representation spoken of, 1st James. It was after the ancient manner. Legal and illegal grievances. There were two rises for it. The one was wardship, the other purveyance, which were both grounded in law. A representation is to move and persuade, and why should the king be moved and persuaded to what he tells us he will do? Had bills been denied, and unfrequency of parliaments: but when the king can say, the parliament is continued, and no public bills, to which the king has said, le roi s'avisera, knows not any need of such representation, when the king is before hand with us. Would have Williams show what decay of trade, or religion, has been represented to the king, and not redressed. The parliament never did it, but when there was a clear obstruction; therefore would wave representation. Mr. Sacheverell. The question is, whether you will make a representation of the present State of the Nation to the king, or no.. Would now know what you will debate this matter for, if not to represent it to the king. It is said no such thing has been done before, but takes it plainly to lay before the king, the reason of impiety and atheism, and leave it with him, and how poor the nation is, and how we came into it, and leave it with him to amend it. Will tell you precedents that have been, 50 E. iii. Where the commons tell the king; |