there should be an obstruction upon occasion | been pleased to impart to us. The commons of this difference, at whose door it must lie; those that assume to themselves more than belongs to them, to the prejudice and diminution of the others right, or theirs that do only exercise that just and lawful power which by the very nature and constant practice of parliament is, and for many ages hath been, vested in both houses.-Their lordships had under their consideration and debate the desiring a free conference with your house, upon the Reasons of the Amendments in difference between the houses; but when they found that you had interwoven your general position with every Reason you had offered upon particulars, it seemed to them that your judgments were prepossessed; and they hold it vain and below the wisdom of parliament to reason or argue against fixed resolutions, and upon terms of impossibility to persuade; and have therefore applied themselves only to that point which yet remains an impediment in the way of free and parliamentary debates and conferences, which must necessarily be first removed, that so we may come to a free conference upon the Bill itself, and part with a fair correspondence between the two houses." · confess, that the best rule for deciding questions of Right between the two houses, is the law, and usage of parliament; and that the best evidences of that usage and custom of parliament are, the most frequent and authentic Precedents: therefore the commons will first examine the Precedents your lordships seem to rely upon; then they will produce those by which their right is asserted; and in the last place, they will consider the Reasons upon which your lordships ground yourselves.-By the nature of the Precedents which your lordships produce, there is an evident departure from the question as the former conference left it. There the doubt was narrowed to this single point, Whether your lordships could retrench or abate any part of the Rates which the commons had granted upon merchandize? Here the precedents do go to a joint power of imposing and beginning of taxes, which is a point we have not yet heard your lordships to pretend to, though this present difference prepares way for it: therefore, either these precedents prove too much, by proving a power of imposing; or they prove nothing at all, by not proving a power of lessening, And yet Third Conference.] April 22. The earl they do not prove a power of imposing neither; of Anglesey began the Report of this Con- for those words the lords and commons ference; who said, That Mr. Attorney (sir grant,' must either be understood reddendo Heneage Finch), told them, That, because singula, singulis; that is, the lords grant for the matter is of moment, the b. of commons themselves, and the commons grant for the have trusted none to give their words but counties, cities, and boroughs, whom they rethemselves; therefore have ordered it to be in present; or else the word grant' must be unwriting, as followeth : "The commons have derstood only of the lords assent to what the desired this Conference, to preserve a good commons grant, because the form of law recorrespondence with the h. of peers, and to quires, that both join in one bill to give it the prevent the ill consequences of those misun- force of a law. This answers the statute of derstandings which may possibly interrupt the Magna Charta, c. 37, and those few instances happy conclusion of this session, and of all wherein it is said,The lords and commons future parliaments too, if they be not very grant;' viz. the 47 E. iii. N. 10. 4 R. ii. N. speedily removed: wherein the commons are 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. 6 R. ii. N. 14. But what not without hopes of giving your lordships full answer can be given to those ancient and satisfaction in the point in question, and that modern precedents and acts, where the grant without shaking any foundations, unless it be moves, and is acknowledged to come from the such as no man should lay, much less build commons alone; of which a multitude shall upon, the foundations of a perpetual dissention be hereinafter mentioned? The case of the 14 between the two houses. Three things did sur- E. iii. N. 5, Apres grand trete et parlance prize the commons at the former conference 'entre lez grantz et chevaliers et communs, concerning the Bill for an additional Impo- 'fuit assentus,' &c. is no grant of the 9th sition on several Foreign Commodities: 1. sheaf, as your lordships cited it to be; but an That where they expected a discourse upon agreement that the nones granted in a former some Amendments to that bill, they met with parliament should now be sold, because the nothing but a debate of the liberties of their money came not in fast enough.-22 E. iii. N. house, in the matter, measure, and time, of S, which your lordships cite to prove that the rates upon merchandize, with a kind of a de-king did sometimes command the lords to conmand, that these liberties might be delivered up to your lordships by our public acknowledgement before there should be any further discourse upon that bill. 2. That your lordships should declare so fixed and settled a Resolution in this point, before you had so much as heard what could be replied in defence of the commons. 3. That your lordships should be so easily induced to take this Resolution, if there be no other motives for it than those Precedents and Reasons which your lordships have sult with the commons about raising Money, proves little of that; but it proves expressly, that the commons granted 3 fifteenths; and as the grant runs wholly in their name, so the record is full of many reasons why they could grant no more, and upon what conditions they granted so much.-And yet all these records, wherein the lords advised with the commons about raising money, though they seem to make a shew in your lordships paper, yet they prove two things of great importance to the commons: 1. That all Aids must begin with the commons; else the lords needed not to have conferred about the aids, but might have sent down a bill. 2. That when they are begun, the lords can neither add nor diminish; else it was in vain to adjust the matter by private conference beforehand, if the lords could have reformed it afterwards; which shews how little service the records of 29 E. iii. N. 11, 51 E. iii. N. 18, can do your lordships in the present question.-From the time of R. ii. your lordships come to 7 Jac. to tell us of the Treaty between the lords and commons touching the Contract for Tenures in capite, wherein, the lords and commons being to be purchasers, it was less subject to objection, to confer both of the method and manner how the price agreed might be paid for the satisfaction of the king: but this matter hath so little affinity with the present question of lessening Rates upon Merchandizes, given by the commons, that nothing but a scarcity of precedents could ever have persuaded your lordships to make use of this instance.-As for the precedent of 3 E. i, cited by your lordships, the commons have most reason to rely upon that case.Your lordships say, in the beginning of impositions, when 40s. upon a sack of wool was granted to E. i. and his heirs, the lords joined in the grant; for the words are, Magnates, prelati, et tota communitas concesserunt,' wherein there are these mistakes: first, that record was not a grant of 40s. upon the sack of wool, as your lordships suppose, but a reducing of 40s. upon a sack, which E. i. took before Magna Charta was confirmed, to half a mark, viz. 6s. per sack; and it was at the prayer of the commons, as some books say, and cite for it 3 E. i. M. 24. Secondly, the record which your lordships cite is twice printed, once in the 2d part of the Institutes, p. 531, and again in the 4th part of the Institutes, p. 29; and by both those places it is evident that the concesserunt' is to be applied only to the tota communitas,' and not to the Magnates;' for this was a grant of the commons only, and not a grant of the lords; and, to demonstrate this beyond all possibility of scruple, the printed books do refer us to the Statute of 25 E. i. c. 7, called 'Confirmationes Chartarum,' wherein it is expressly so declared by act of parliament; for, by the last statute, it appears that the Maletot of 40s. upon a sack was again demanded by E. i. and was therefore now abrogated, saving to the king and his heirs the demi-mark upon a sack of wool granted by the commonalty, which is the very same grant of 3 E. i. cited by your lordships in the present question; but this is also a convincing evidence that those words The lords and commons grant' are words of form, and made use of in such cases where the grant did certainly proceed from the commons alone. And to clear this point yet more fully by a modern precedent, we pray your lordships to take notice of the statute of the 2d and 3d of Ed. vi. c. 36, where a relief is given to the king by parliament; and the title of the act, as also in the body of it, it is still called all along The grant of the lords and commons; yet in 3 & 4 Ed, vi. c. 23, this former act is recited, and there it is acknowledged to be only a grant of the commons. And as for the case of 9 H. iv. called The Indemnity of the lords and commons,' these things are evidently proved by it; 1. That it was a grievance to the commons, and a breach to their liberties, for the lords to demand a committee to confer with about aids. 2. That the lords ought to consider by themselves apart. 3. That no report should be made to the king of what the commons had granted, and the lords assented to, till the matter be perfected; so that a plain declaration is made, that the commons grant, and the lords assent. 4. That the gift ought to be presented by the Speaker of the commons. The Book Case of 33 H. vi. 17, is the weakest of all; for the words are, 'Si les comm'es grant Tonage p' 4 aun. and s'n'rs grant mes pur deux anns, ceo ne sera reliver aux commoners; mes via versâ, si co'ones grant p' 2 ans et s'n'rs p' 4. ceo sera reliver. Now, 1. This was no opinion of any judge, but only of Kirkby, cl. de parliament. 2. This was a case put by the bye, and not pertinent to the matter in band. 3. It is impossible to be law, being against the constant practice and usage of parliament; for then your lordships may not only lessen the rates and time, but you may choose whether you will send us the bill or no back again, with amendment, which was never heard of; and if that may be, why was it not done so now? 4. That clerk says, your lordships may increase impositions too, which part of the case you thought not fit to cite, because you pretend not to it. 5. Brooke, parliament, 7, puts a query upon the case, as it deserved. But if the law books are to be heard in this matter, 30 H. viii. Dyer 43, is a judicial authority, where Subsidy is defined to be, a tax, assess par parliament, et grant al roy par les co'ones durant vyde chesc. roy, tantum pour le defence des merchants sur le mere.'-The provisos in the bill of 1 H. viii. which your lordships scem mainly to rely upon, we conceive to be of no force at all, unless it be against your lordships; for, by your lordships Journals, the case was this: the Bill itself did not pass till the Sd of Hen. viii.; and upon the 43d day of parliament, the lords assented to it. Afterwards, upon the 45th day, two provisos came in touching the merchants of the Hans Towns, another touching the merchants of the Staple of Calais; both were signed by the king; and the chancellor and bp. of Winchester did declare that the signing of those provisos by the king's own hand was enough, without the consent of either house; so that the addition of those provisos prove nothing for which your lordships cited them; because, 1. They were signed by the king: 2. They were brought in, against all course of parliament, after the bill passed: 3. The provisos were nothing but a saving of former rights, usually considered in former acts of that nature: 4. Your lordships Journal declares, that the king without these provisos, might have done the same thing by his prerogative. Only this may be fit to be observed by the way, that as the bill was a grant of the commons alone, so the thanks for that bill was given to the commons alone; and so appears upon the indorsement of that record. The Precedents for the commons, which on the sudden we find, for we have had but few hours to search, are all these following: 11 E. i. Walsingham 471, 'Populus dedit regi tricesimam partem bonorum.' 25 E. i. Walsingham 486, Populus dedit regi denarium novum.' 7 H. iv. Walsingham 566, postquam milites parliamentares diu distulissent, concedere regi subsidium in fine tamem fracti concessere.' 6 H. iv. Walsingham 564, Subsidium denegatum fuit proceribus remittentibus.' So hitherto when granted, the commons give it; when denied, the whole bill rejected, never abated. 1 E. iii. stat. 2, c. 6, The commons grieved, that when they granted an aid, and paid it, the taxes were reviewed. 18 E. iii. c. 1, stat. at large, The commons grant two fifteenths; the great men grant nothing, but to go in person with the king. 36 E. iii. c. 11, the king having regard to the grant made by the commons for three years of wool and leather, grants that no Aid be levied, but by | consent of parliament. 21 Rii. N. 75, is the first grant of Tonnage and Poundage for life; and it was given by the commons alone. 2 H. vi. N. 14, The commons grant tonnage and poundage for two years. 31 H. vi. N. 7, 8, 9, 10, The commons grant Tonnage, &c. for life. 8 E. iv. N. 30, The commons grant two tenths and two fifteenths. 12 E. iv. c. 3, The grant for Tonnage and Poundage for life is recited to be by the commons, and most of the rates mentioned in the bill. The wars of York and Lancaster are so from weakening these precedents, it strengthens them rather; for no man can think the lords were then in less power, or less careful of their rights, than your lordships are now; wherefore, if in those days those forms were approved by those mighty men, it is a sign the right is clear. 1 H. vii. The commons, by assent of the lords, grant Tonnage. 15 H. vii. In Ireland was the first grant of Tonnage and Poundage; but it is said, at the prayer of the commons it is enacted: which in a kingdom where they are not tied to forms, shews the clear right. 1 E. vi. c. 13, 1 M. c. 8, 1 Eliz. c. 19, We your poor commons by advice, &c. grant: And also avers the right, time out of mind, to be in the commons in like manner. This statute of the 1st of Eliz. c. 19, gives us occasion to put your lordships in mind of another precedent which appears in your own Journals; for, while this bill was passing, the inhabitants of Cheshire and Wales petition the lords, upon the second reading, That forasmuch as they were subject to pay the queen a certain duty called Mises, that therefore they might be excused of the subsidy, and abated their parts of it. The lords, who then knew they had no power to diminish any part of the Aid granted by the commons, did therefore address themselves to the queen in their behalfs. The queen commands an entry to be made in the Journal of the house of lords, That she was pleased that the Cheshire men and the Welch men should be respited the Mises when they pay subsidies, and respited the subsidies when they pay Mises; which is a strong proof, that as the commons alone grant, so nobody can diminish their grant; else what need had the lords to apply themselves to the queen for it? 17 Car. i. Tonnage and Poundage was granted once for a mouth, then again for three months; but still the grant was by the commons: in those days, how tumultuous soever, the commons did not rise against the lords: they agreed well enough. And the preamble of this very bill now in question. All grants of the commons; yet none of these bills were ever varied by your lordships or your predecessors; which, if there had been such a right, would some time or other have been exercised, though in very small values, purposely to preserve that right. Thus an uninterrupted possession of this Privilege ever since 9 H. iv. confirmed by a multitude of precedents both before and after, not shaken by one precedent for these 300 years, is now required to be delivered up, or an end put to all further discourse; which opinion, if it be adhered to, is, as much as in your lordships lies, to put an end to all further transactions between the houses in matter of Money, which we pray your lordships to consider." The Reasons offered by the House of Commons were these:-" Because it appears not to the commons, any colour from the Precedents cited by your lordships, why your opinions should be so fixed in this point. We suppose the main defence is in the Reasons that have been given for it. That Paper begins with an observation, That your lordships have neither Reason nor Precedent offered by the com'mons to hack their Resolution;' and yet concludes with an Answer to a precedent then. cited by the h. of commons, viz. the Act of Tonnage and Poundage now in force. And if your lordships heard but one precedent then, you have now a great number, besides those of 3 Ed. i. and 1 H. viii. and 9 H. iv. and divers others your lordships furnished us with.-Before the commons answer to your lordships Reasons in particular, they desire to say, first, in general, That it is a very unsafe thing in any settled government, to argue the Reasons of the fundamental constitutions; for that can tend to nothing that is profitable for the whole. Aud this will more sensibly appear to your lordships, if the grounds and foundations of judicature be examined; for there are several precedents in the parliament, and some in Book Cases, which prove that the judicature is not to be exercised by all the lords, but only such as the king is pleased to appoint. So is the Book Case of 22. E. iii. 3. a. b. and so is the Parliament Roll, 25 E. iii. N. 4.-Several other Precedents, where the commons by the king's good pleasure have been let into a share of the very judicature, are 42 E. iii. N. 20, 21. 31 H. vi. N. 10, 8 E. iv. Hugh Brice's Case in the Rolls of parliament.-Some precedents there are, where it was assigned for error in the house of peers, That the lords gave judgment without Petition or Assent of the commons.' So is the 2 H. v. N. 13.-Would your lordships think it safe, that a dispute should now be made of the very rights of judicature, because we have such precedents? If usage for so long a time have silenced all disputes touching your lordships judicature, shall that usage be of no force to preserve the privileges of the commons from all further question? Also, there is a precedent of an act of parliament passed by the king and commons alone, without the lords, viz. 1 E. vi. C. 5, and that twice approved, viz. 1 Eliz. C. 7, and 5 Eliz. C. 19, which both allow and commend this act. Shall we therefore argue the foundations of the legislature, because we have such precedents? -But to come to particulars: Your lordships first Reason is, from the happiness of the constitution, That the two houses are mutual checks upon each other. Answ. So they are still; for your lordships have a negative to the whole. But, on the other side, it would be a double check upon his majesty's affairs, if the king may not rely upon the quantum, when once his people have given it; therefore the privilege now contended for by your lordships is not of use to the crown, but much the contrary. 2. Your lordships Reason, drawn from the Writ of Summons, is as little concluding; for, though the writ do not exclude you from any affairs, yet it is only de quibusdam arduis negotiis,' and must be understood of such as by course of parliament are proper, else the commons upon the like ground may entitle themselves to judicature; for they are also called to treat' de quibusdam. arduis.' 3. Your lordships proceed to demand, Where is that record or contract in parliament to be found, where the lords appropriate this right to the commons in exclusion of themselves? Answ. To this rhetorical question the commons pray they may answer by another question; Where is that record or contract, by which the commons submitted that judicature should be appropriated to the lords in exclusion of themselves? Wherever your lordships find the last record, they will shew the first endorsed upon the back of the same roll. Truth is, precedents there are where both sides do exercise these several rights, but none how either side came by them. 4. If the lords may deny the whole, why not a part? Else the commons may at last pretend against the lords negative voice. Answ. The king must deny the whole of every bill, or pass it; yet this takes not away his negative voice: the lords and commons must accept the whole general pardon, or deny it; yet this takes not away their nega tive. The clergy bave a right to tax themselves, and it is a part of the privilege of their estate: doth the upper convocation house alter what the lower grant? or do the lords or commons ever abate any part of their gift? Yet they have a power to reject the whole. But, if abatement should be made, it would insensibly go to a raising, and deprive the clergy of their ancient right to tax themselves.-5. Your lordships say, Judicature is undoubtedly ours; yet in bills of judicature we allow the commons to amend and alter: why should not the commons allow to us the same privilege in bills of money? Answ. If contracts were now to be made for privileges, the offer might seem fair: but yet the commons should profit little by it; for your lordships do now industriously avoid all bills of that nature, and choose to do many things by your own power, which ought to be done by the legislative; of which we forbear the instances, because your lordships, we hope, will reform them; and we desire not to create new differences, hut to compose the old.-6. Your lordships say, You are put to an ignoble choice, either to refuse the king's Supplies when they are most necessary, or to consent to such ways and proportions which neither your own judgment nor good of the government or people can admit.Answ. We pray your lordships to observe, That this reason, first, makes your lordships judgment to be the measure of the welfare of the commons of England. 2. It gives you power to raise and increase taxes, as well as to abate, for it may sometimes, in your lordships judgments, be for interest of trade to raise and increase a rate; and then still you are brought to the same ignoble choice, unless you may raise the tax. But it is a very ignoble choice put upon the king and his people, That either his maj. must demand, and the commons give, so small an aid as can never be diminished, or else run the hazard of your lordships re-examination of the rates, whose proportions in all taxes, in comparison to what the commonalty pay, is very inconsiderable.-7. If positive assertions can introduce right, the lords have no security; but the commons may extend their rights, as they judge it necessary or expedient. Answ. We hope no assertions or denials, though never so positive, shall give or take away a right; but we rely upon usage of our side, and non-usage on your lordships part, as the best evidences by which your lordships or we can claim any privilege.-8. Your lordships profess a desire to raise our esteem with his maj. and the whole kingdom, but not by the under-valuation of the house of peers. Answ. We have great confidence in his maj.'s goodness, that nothing can lessen his esteem of our dutiful affections to him; and we hope we have deserved so well of our country, by our deportment towards his majesty, that we shall not need your lordships recommendations to any who wish well to his maj. or the present government. But we are so far from wishing to raise an esteem by any diminution of your | them how his Revenue was clogged with Debts; lordships honour or privileges, that there never was any house of commons who had a more just and true respect of that noble constitution of a house of peers; of which your lordships have had frequent instances, by our consenting to several clauses in Bills for securing and improving your lordships privileges. We are sorry to see your lordships undervalue the precedent of this last Act of Tonnage and Poundage; because, though it were an act of the last Convention, it was confirmed in this. And because the right of the commons there asserted was pursuant to a former precedent in 1642, and possibly had not passed so, if the younger members of that Convention had not learned from some of these great and noble lords who now manage the conference for your lordships, and were then commoners, that this was the undoubted right of the commons.-To conclude: The commons have examined themselves and their proceedings, and find no cause why your lordships should put them in mind of that modesty by which their ancestors shewed a great deference to the wisdom of the lords; for they resolve ever to observe the modesty of their ancestors, and doubt not but your lordships will also follow the wisdom of yours." To these the Lords proceeded to make some Replies: and, particularly, "as to their having no power to alter the Subsidies of the Clergy, nor an Act for a general Pardon; they said, these were things eccentric to parliaments, and had their motion in another sphere: the Convocation gave one, and the king of his free grace bestowed the other; and the parliament only gave them the force of law, and might chuse whether they would do it or not; and consequently this was no ways to the case in dispute. But to read the commons MoneyBill three times in their house, and to commit it, without any power of debating upon it, was a solemn piece of pageantry, beneath the dignity of a parliament. As to the point of Judicature, they alledged, it belonged to the peers before the very being of a house of commons, rather as the grand council of the nation, than as part of the parliament; and being vested in the king, as well as themselves, might possibly exist without the sitting of a parliament. As to Precedents they alledged, we have sevcral for us; but it were enough for our justification, if there be none against us; and there could be but one of these kinds, either that we have of ourselves disclaimed such a power, or that it hath been denied them when they have claimed it, and whosoever sheweth one of either, Erit nobis magnus Apollo."" The Speaker's Speech to the King, at the Prorogation.] April 22. But before a period could be put to this great Controversy, his majesty came to the house of peers in order to a prorogation. The commons being come, the Speaker addressed his maj. to this effect: "That his majesty was pleased in Oct. last (when the parliament then met), to acquaint and that the coinmons, taking the same into consideration, resolved to supply his maj. accordingly; and that, on the 6th of March last, he presented his majesty, from the house of commons, with the Subsidy and Excise bills; and now, by their command, he presented his maj. with the bill for laying Impositions on Proceedings at Law: that he was commanded humbly to beseech his majesty, that the Rovenue thereof might be effectually applied to the payment of his debts: and that he had further in command from them, to let his maj. know, That they had enlarged the time for the Impositions on Proceedings at Law to 9 years, that thereby his maj. might be the better en bled to satisfy his Debt owing to the prince of Orange; he begged his pardon, that he called it his Debt, it being contracted for Supplies afforded to his royal father and himself in their unhappy necessities, and therefore not to be forgotten. He said, that geographers write of some Islands called Insula Fortunatæ,' whose harvest is said to be in March and April; he hoped, that England might be accounted one of those Islands, having afforded his maj. such a crop in March last and this April, which he humbly besought his maj, to accept as a pledge of their dutiful affection to him." The King's Speech.] After passing several Bills his majesty spake thus: "My Lords and Gentlemen; I give you very hearty thanks, for the Supply you have now given me."-His majesty also procceded further to thank them for what they had further intended him; and assured them, "That what they had given him should be employed toward the payment of his Debts, and his expences for this year: that it was now time for them to go into their countries; and he desired them to take care that in the laying and collecting of the Subsidy they had given him, it might be improved to what they intended. He said further, That he intended the parliament should be prorogued, not to meet again for almost a year; but hoped that when they did meet, they would come again with the same affections to his service as formerly; and what he had further to say to them, they should understand by the Lord Keeper." Then the Lord Keeper spake to this effect: "My Lords and Gentlemen; His maj, hath told you with how great satisfaction he hath accepted your Supplies, as real testimonies of the constancy of your good affections." His lordship further told them, "That many of them being commissioners in the country for the new Subsidy; his maj. desired them to use their endeavours to make it effectual, and suitable to their intentions; and wished them to assure their neighbours, that he would employ the monies entirely towards the payment of his debts."-He then prorogued the parliament to the 16th of April next.* *The state of the nation, at and about this time, is thus summed up by Marvell, in his |