occurs, is the possible wants of the treasury as necessitating this early loan, on the policy of contracting for which at the precise period at which it took place, I shall feel it my duty to state some doubts. How long the exchequer could have carried on the public service without this aid, it is not possible for me, with precision, to judge; but I have the noble lord's own authority for supposing that no money was wanting sooner than the 18th April; that being the day on which I understand he at first stated to the contractors, that he should be satisfied to receive the first instalment. Having determined to make his bargain on the 30th March, and having declared to Parliament his purpose of opening his budget on that day, upon learning from the contractors what was in itself pretty obvious, that this long interval, wholly unexampled in contracts for loans, was extremely objectionable to them, as leaving them altogether at the mercy of their subscribers, in case of any intermediate fall in the market, his lordship was obliged to change plan, and take the first payment on the 6th April, when the market is peculiarly unfavourable for such an operation. The bargain made is certainly in itself an advantageous one, generally speaking, for the public-but as terms are relatively good or bad, I am not prepared to say that somewhat better terms might not have been obtained if this first instalment of 2,000,000l. had been to be paid in at the time the noble lord first intended, and subsequent to the time when April dividends, amounting to 6,000,0001. had found their way into circulation.

I am sure, if either by accelerating the estimates for the army, or postponing the making the loans, the business could have been conducted in its usual course, the House ought to have been saved from the painful dilemma in which it is now placed, of either appearing to impede the provision for the public service, or adopting, for the first time since the Revolution, a course of proceeding in breach of the most important maxims of parliamentary practice; for although the House has frequently permitted the chancellor of the exchequer to provide for possible expenditure, not admitting of precise estimate, such as army extraordinaries and subsidies, though not previously voted in the committee of supply, they never did deliberately before acquiesce in his providing for the army at large before the estimates were considered, and voted in the committee of supply; and I

trust

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trust I have stated enough to the House to protect us against a recurrence to such practices in future.

Before I sit down, I cannot avoid shortly adverting to the gloomy picture drawn by an honourable gentleman (Mr. Francis) early in the debate, of the declining and impoverished state of the country. I am perfectly ready to admit that the people are necessarily called upon to submit to heavy burthens, but I can by no means subscribe to his opinion that they seem likely to sink under them. The honourable gentleman has had recourse to the poor laws, and the sum annually applied to this purpose, as a proof of our poverty. It is rather a singular mode of proving his proposition to refer to a system which has grown out of the affluence and liberality of the nation, and which, however liable to abuse, is generally considered as justifying a very different conclusion. In stating the increase of this charge, he seems to forget, that without any increase in the proportion of the poor receiving relief to the other part of the community, they must increase in number as the popu lation advances; and the charge of relieving the same number of poor must also increase in proportion as all the articles of food, &c. advance in price.

I certainly do not deny that the pressure of taxes is severe, but I do assert that it is not such as to check or disturb in any respect the industry, and consequently the prosperity of the country. If the honourable gentleman wishes to know what an impoverished and declining country is, let him refer back to the period when my late right honourable friend (Mr. Pitt) first took charge of the finance of the country in 1784. The manufactures and commerce declining in proportion as burthens were imposed, every new tax counteracting those in existence, and the whole falling short in produce of what they were taken at, and with dif ficulty providing for the permanent charge of the debt. We now find, notwithstanding the taxes are since increased so muchlin amount, that both the old and new duties increase every year in amount; that hardly a tax has been laid which has not exceeded the estimate in its produce; and the documents before Parliament indisputably prove, that our agriculture, manufactures, and commerce, are extending We have themselves rapidly, even in the midst of war. also, in later years, been able to adopt the salutary principle of raising a large proportion of our supplies within the year, (including the war taxes now proposed, to the extent nearly 4A2

of

of one half of our war expenditure) an effort, which could only be made by a country both highly affluent and pros'perous, whilst the sinking-fund, already amounting to about eight millions a year, gives us every reason to hope, that the moment is not far distant, when the comparatively small increase of debt which now takes place may be prevented even in war, and its rapid liquidation looked to with confidence on the return of peace. The noble lord well described the value of this institution to the public on a former night, by stating it as his persuasion, that had the sinking-fund, on its present principles, not been established in 1786, we must ever since have made our loans on terms so ruinous, as to have incurred an annual charge for interest alone fully equal to what now covers both the interest and sinking-fund of the public debt. It may, therefore, be fairly said, that a perpetual annuity of eight millions a year has been thereby saved to the nation, which, after liquidating the principal, is revertible to them. The justice and gratitude of Parliament has left nothing to his friends to desire on this head; but, surely, a prouder monument was never raised by the wisdom and exertions of an individual to his own fame, than by this single measure, established, and inviolably adhered to, as it was through times of the utmost difficulty.

Can it then be said that the country does not exhibit at this moment the most convincing signs of health and prosperity? If the public are heavily burthened, they bear it with fortitude and good-will, because they feel it is the necessary consequence of the efforts which they are called upon to make for their own preservation against the common enemy. Heavy as the pressure is, can the honourable gentleman recollect any period in the history: the country, when discontent was less apparent, or when the nation submitted with more marks of manliness, and even satisfaction, to every sacrifice the public exigency has imposed? Never did any ministers succeed to a government, when the greatest of all resources and support, namely, the public mind, was in a more happy temper to aid them in surmounting the difficulties with which they have to contend. Never did any ministers find the country, on their coming into oflice, more truly prosperous, its revenue more productive, or its credit higher; that such was the state of the navy, I am sure they will not deny, and I shall be prepared to maintain, when that subject comes regularly into discussion, that the same may be asserted

with not less truth, with respect to the army. Finding all the main features of our national strength thus vigorous and entire, I trust they will continue to administer them upon those principles by which they have been hitherto preserved, improved, and upheld. The noble lord has done himself honour by the course he has pursued in his present budget. The despondency of the honourable gentleman will not, I trust, discourage him from continuing to tread in the path which his predecessor has marked out for him. So long as he perseveres in doing so, and as it shall be the principle of the government to maintain with firmness that system upon which their predecessors have acted, the noble lord will find me anxious to smooth his difficulties, and to afford him my cordial support.

Mr. Vansittart, in answer to that part of the noble lord's speech, in which he said, the first deposit of the loan in the bank would be at his disposal, observed, that it would only remain in custody for the future use of government; but, that a shilling of it must not be touched, without a bill of appropriation, which the house had still within its control. He denied that the doctrine laid down in the authority of Hatsell, as quoted by the noble lord, supported his assertions, and said, that in 1802 there was a precedent precisely in point in the case of the navy supply, which was voted, first for four months, then for six, and then for the remainder of the year, without the estimates being laid before the House at any of those times. In answer to some arguments, which had been offered by another hon. gen tleman, on the subject of war taxes and the sinking-fund, he begged to state the advantages which had accrued to the country from that system. The former, since its first adoption, had saved to the country eighteen millions of debt, and three millions of permanent taxes; and the sinking-fund, since its adoption, had saved two hundred millions of debt, and eighty millions in taxes.

Mr. Rose maintained, that notwithstanding every thing which had been endeavoured to be argued to the contrary, the noble lord had certainly violated the principle of the constitution of this country, as established in the system of proposing to the House of Commons the ways and means of the year, because he had proposed the ways and means before the amount of the supplies were known, which must be the case until it was known what our army was to be. It was said that the produce of the war taxes were so appropriated,

propriated, that they could not be diverted from their intended purpose; that was not so in point of fact, for as to. appropriation, the moment these taxes were voted, they were as much under the will of the lords of the treasury, and at their command, as any other sum of money voted by Parliament for the public service; and therefore this measure, as far as it went, was a direct violation of the constitutional principle, which provided that the ways and means should not be voted until the whole of the supplies were known; and this was done without any ground whatever for it. These ways and means should never be voted before the army had been voted in a committee of supply; it never had been done in any instance since the Revolution; by army he must be understood to mean the main body of the army, under the head of guards, garrisons, &c. He must repeat, that the thing was never attempted before since the Revolution, except in the instance quoted by the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, and which he stated to have taken place on his own motion in 1802, which ought not to be considered as a precedent, for it was a thing of which the House did not happen to take a proper notice, and it was hardly right for the hon. gentleman to be the author of a bad precedent; and this shewed the propriety of the house never enduring the same unconstitutional measure again: and this was all he should say on that head, except expressing a hope that such a thing will never be attempted again by any minister. As to the taxes, he desired to be understood as not intending to throw any difficulties in the way of government; for he had no wish to oppose one of them, nor should he do so when the bills were brought in; he thought it right, however, that the noble lord might hear what he had to say upon them; then he might turn them in his mind in the course of their progress, and judge how far any of his arguments ought to have any weight. In the first place, the tax on wine, he was confirmed, would not produce what it was estimated at. It was proposed to be made permanent for the war by Mr. Pitt; but he did not apply it to the payment of the interest of the debt, although he considered it as made permanent as a mere war tax; it had increased at first, but it had fallen off; and he was aware it would not produce what it was taken at. He spoke from documents which could not mislead him on the subject; he believed, that instead of taking it at 500,000/. it would be wiser to take it at

300,000!.