RETURN to an ORDER of the Honourable The House of Commons, "COPY of the CORRESPONDENCE between the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and the Irish Ecclesiastical Commissioners, in reference to the Application of a Portion of the PERPETUITY FUND to the Building and Repairing of CHURCHES in Ireland." SCHEDULE. No. 1.-The Lord Lieutenant to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; 5 September 1844 Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 5 August 1845. p. 1 p. 2 p. 3 p. 3 P. 13 P. 14 p. 14 LETTER from the Lord Lieutenant to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. Vice-Regal Lodge, 5 Sept. 1844. My Lords and Gentlemen, THE subject of the sales of the perpetuities under the Church Temporalities Acts having engaged the attention of Her Majesty's Government, I have to express their regret to find that the whole of the income arising from this source of revenue has been spent, and no portion whatever retained as capital, yielding an annual income. The funds placed at the disposal of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, on the establishment of the Commission, and the purposes to which the same were by law made applicable, in the payment of the arrears of vestry-cess, the providing things requisite for the celebration of Divine service, and in the repairs of churches, may have rendered it necessary to have appropriated the whole of the monies arising from those sales; but as it would appear that the claims on account of vestry-cess have been satisfied, and a large expenditure been incurred in putting the parish churches into good repair, the Government conceive that the same necessity cannot now exist as heretofore, which would justify the Commissioners in drawing further upon the capital of the Perpetuity Purchase Fund, and they cannot but think that the interests of the Established Church in Ireland would not only be best served, but require that the monies arising from this source should for the future be invested in Government securities, and the expenditure solely confined to the interest money accruing therefrom. In communicating the opinion entertained by the Government upon this point, I consider it to be unnecessary to remind the Commissioners of that provision, whereby all the proceeds and funds arising under the Church Temporalities Acts stand charged with the repayment of the balance of the 100,000 l. advanced by the Board of Works, prior and in preference to any other application of those funds, pursuant to the order and direction of the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury; for I feel satisfied that it is only necessary to draw the attention in order to insure the ready acquiescence of the Commissioners in the views entertained by Her Majesty's Ministers on the subject, and to prevent the necessity of any further legislation. By referring to the accounts annexed to their annual reports for the last few years, it appears that the permanent annual income of the Commissioners is gradually increasing; and it is a matter much to be desired that the expenditure, if possible, should not exceed the amount of permanent income, in which it is apprehended there may now be little or no difficulty, provided the Church works be for the present confined to such objects only as are absolutely necessary, until the interest arising from the investments of the capital of the perpetuity purchases will justify a larger expenditure upon works of this nature. And in order that no erroneous opinions may exist upon a matter of so much importance to the welfare of the Church in Ireland, I have to request that you will furnish, for the information of Government, an account of the expected annual income of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, for the year commencing the 1st August 1844, including therein the interest of any monies arising from investments of the perpetuity purchase money, the sources of revenue generally, and the purposes to which the same are by law applicable; showing, at the same time, the residuary amount of such annual income as may be available for Church works in the ensuing year; and, with reference to the past, the following papers : 1. The amount of Income in each year since 1833, exclusive of the produce of the sale of Perpetuities. 2. The amount of Expenditure in each year. 3. The amount of the produce of the sale of Perpetuities in each year. 4. The amount of the arrears of Vestry-cess, previous to the establishment of the Commissioners, for which they were made accountable. 5. The amount of Money advanced to the Commissioners by Government, and of any Sums repaid on account of the same. 6. To state any causes which have prevented or are likely to prevent the receipt of the full income expected in the year 1835, according to the calculations of Mr. Finlaison, which, by order of the House of Commons, were printed in April 1835. I have, &c. (signed) Heytesbury. No. 2. LETTER from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to the Lord Lieutenant. My Lord, 24, Upper Merrion-street, Ecclesiastical Commission, 14 September 1844. I HAVE had the honour of submitting to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for Ireland your Excellency's letter of the 5th instant, on the subject of the sale of perpetuities under the Church Temporalities Acts, and requiring information in respect to the funds and expenditure of this Board; and I have to acquaint your Excellency that I have received the directions of the Commissioners to bring your Excellency's letter under the consideration of a full meeting of the Board, so soon as the attendance of the episcopal and other absent members can be procured. And I have to state to your Excellency, that in the meantime the Commissioners have ordered the accounts called for by your Excellency to be prepared. PROCEEDINGS at a Special Meeting of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. Ar a Special Meeting of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for Ireland, WITH reference to the Board's order, No. 1, of the 13th September last, the letter of his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant was read, on the subject of the funds of the Board, as connected with the Perpetuity Purchase Fund, and calling for certain returns in relation thereto; and the several returns above referred to, including an account of the expected annual income and expenditure of the Commissioners, exclusive of the capital of the Perpetuity Purchase Fund, showing a balance available for Church works, amounting to 19,6717. os. 9 d., was laid on the table. Also the annual estimate of the funds and engagements of the Board for the period ending the 1st November 1845, showing a balance available for Church works of 32,935l. 18s. 2d., including the capital of the Perpetuity Purchase Fund. And the report of the architect, of the 21st instant, on the subject of applications for Church works, now in office, amounting to 136,992l. 4s. 11d., reduced to the sum of 26,834/. 1s. 10d., for works deemed absolutely necessary for the ensuing year, was also submitted; and same having been fully considered with reference to the suggestion contained in Lord Heytesbury's letter respecting the investment in Government securities of the monies arising from the sale of perpetuities, and the confining the expenditure of the Board solely to the interest money arising therefrom; Whereupon it was moved by Mr. Erck, with reference to the Lord Lieutenant's letter, that the aforesaid sum of 19,671l. os. 9d., being the balance of expected income for the ensuing year, exclusive of the capital of the perpetuity purchase money, be for the present appropriated for Church works, until a necessity shall arise for any further expenditure. To which motion the Lord Bishop of Meath moved an amendment, that of the said balance of 32,935l. 18s. 2d., at foot of the aforesaid estimate, which estimate includes the capital of the Perpetuity Purchase Fund, 24,000l. be appropriated for Church works; and said motion and amendment having been fully discussed, the amendment was carried, Mr. Erck dissenting therefrom; and it was then referred to a committee, consisting of the Lord Bishop of Meath, the Lord Bishop of Ossory, Sir Henry Meredyth, Mr. Erck, and Mr. Quin, to prepare a letter in answer to the Lord Lieutenant's communication, to be laid before the Board on Friday next. LETTER from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to the Lord Lieutenant. My Lord, Office of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for Ireland, 7 December 1844. I AM directed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for Ireland to inform your Excellency, that they have had your Excellency's letter, of September 5th, under consideration; and that the communication which it makes of the views of Her Majesty's Government, respecting the fund arising from the sales of perpetuities under the Irish Church Temporalities Act, has engaged their most serious and respectful attention. The Commissioners desire to state, that they concur most sincerely with Her Majesty's Government in regretting that they have not been able hitherto to retain any portion of the sums arising from such sales as capital, having expended the entire in supplying the deficiencies of their annual income from other sources. They are most anxious to assure your Excellency, that they have not made this use of the fund referred to willingly; that though it is by law as available to meet 621. their annual expenditure as any part of their permanent income, yet they have at all times felt that it was in the highest degree expedient to abstain, as far as it was practicable, from so dealing with it; and that accordingly they would from the first have invested the proceeds of the perpetuity sales in Government securities, and have confined their expenditure to the annual interest on such investments, if they could have done so consistently with the duty laid upon them, of providing for those wants of the Church in Ireland for which it was intended to make provision by the Church Temporalities Act. But they have found that the expenditure of the capital was absolutely unavoidable, in order to enable them to follow out in any measure the objects of that Act. And if it was necessary to vindicate the discretion which they have exercised in drawing so largely from a fund which they feel and are ready to acknowledge it was so specially important to spare, they would have no fear of not being able to show that all their encroachments upon this fund have been made under the pressure of absolute necessity; and moreover, that this necessity has not arisen from any want of due economy in the expenditure of the other funds entrusted to their management and control. But the Commissioners are happy to believe that any such detailed reference to the past is at present unnecessary. They perceive with satisfaction that your Excellency is aware of the various heavy and pressing demands for which they had to provide; and they trust they are right in understanding your Excellency as acknowledging, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, that however they may regret that this expenditure was required, they are satisfied that the necessity for it did really exist, arising from the various demands upon the Board to which your Excellency adverts. It would seem, however, that it is the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, that this necessity has now ceased. Your Excellency states, that," as it would appear that the claims on account of vestry-cess have been satisfied, and a large expenditure been incurred in putting parish churches into good repair, the Government conceive that the same necessity cannot now exist as heretofore, which would justify in drawing further upon the capital of the Perpetuity Purchase Fund; and they cannot but think that the interest of the Established Church in Ireland would not only be best served, but require that the money arising from this source should, for the future, be invested in Government securities, and the expenditure solely confined to the interest money accruing therefrom;" and a little further on in the letter, referring to the gradual increase in the income of the Commissioners, as it appears in the accounts annexed to their annual reports, your Excellency states, that it is apprehended, that by confining for the present Church works to such objects as are actually necessary, little or no difficulty will be found in keeping the annual expenditure of the Commissioners from exceeding their permanent income; an object which your Excellency very justly describes as most desirable, if it be practicable to secure it. To this opinion of Her Majesty's Government, thus distinctly conveyed to them by your Excellency, the Commissioners have given, as they were bound to do, the most attentive consideration; and they can assure your Excellency that it would have given them very great satisfaction if they had found themselves able to concur in the opinion, and to meet the expectation on the part of the Government to which it has naturally given rise. But the result of their consideration of the question has been to convince them that, though the sum required in aid of their permanent income is much less now than it was at an earlier stage of the Commission; and though it is to be hoped that the augmentation of their income, under the operation of the Temporalities Act, will be such as eventually to dispense altogether with such aid, yet the necessity of aid to some amount still actually exists. And as this aid can only be obtained from the Perpetuity Purchase Fund, the Commissioners are constrained to communicate to your Excellency, that they cannot, consistently with their duty as Commissioners, pledge themselves to abstain altogether from drawing upon that fund; and they feel that they would be contributing to mislead your Excellency and the Government in the case, if they did not distinctly state that they not only find themselves obliged to resort to this fund to aid in providing for the most pressing wants of the Church in the current year, but that they anticipate a recurrence of the same necessity (though, as they have said, with a diminution of the sum required) for some years to come. The Commissioners trust that it is unnecessary for them to state, that it is with very great reluctance, and only under a sense of the heavy responsibility of the office office which they hold, that they have allowed themselves to differ from Her Majesty's Government upon so important a practical question concerning their future proceedings. The difference is matter of most serious regret to them, but they must add, that they feel persuaded that it never could have arisen if Government possessed the knowledge which they necessarily have of the actual wants of the Church in this country, and of the very limited supply of those wants to which the Commissioners have felt obliged, and more especially recently, to confine themselves; and they feel assured, that if it were possible to put Her Majesty's Government in their place in this respect, all differences of judgment between them and the Commissioners upon the present question would disappear. They cannot hope that this effect will be produced by the returns called for by your Excellency, or by any similar documents; for they are aware, that after the fullest and most circumstantial information which can be given in this way, a question will remain as to the discretion by which their expenditure was regulated and restrained; and this question could only be fully met, so as completely to justify the discretion exercised, by such interminable details as it would be impossible for the Commissioners to present, or for your Excellency to go through. But the Commissioners trust that the following general statement, having a direct reference to an important part of your Excellency's letter, may be found to do something towards the same object, in a less troublesome form. It will, they hope, contribute something towards the object of illustrating the state of the Church in Ireland, in reference to the duties of the Commissioners, and the principles upon which these duties have been discharged by the latter; the demands arising from the wants of the Church on the one hand, and the limits within which the Commissioners have confined themselves in dealing with those demands on the other. In referring to the demands which at an earlier period pressed so heavily upon the Commissioners, your Excellency specifies three distinct items as the most considerable of the entire: the arrears of the vestry-cess for which the Commissioners were made liable, the providing of things requisite for the celebration of Divine service, and the repairs of churches. And your Excellency seems to admit, on the part of the Government, that the pressure arising from those demands was such as to justify the expenditure of the capital of the Perpetuity Purchase Fund, while the pressure continued. But, on the other hand, it is distinctly conveyed to the Commissioners by your Excellency, that such changes have taken place with respect to these particular demands, that the same plea is no longer available, and that in the judgment of Government the same necessity cannot now exist. If by the same necessity, be meant necessity for drawing to the same amount on the fund referred to, the Commissioners have already acknowledged to your Excellency that the same necessity in this sense does no longer exist; but they have at the same time stated, that in their most deliberate judgment, a necessity for resorting to this fund for aid, to a certain smaller amount, still continues; and they hope to confirm this statement by briefly going through the three important items of expenditure enumerated by your Excellency. 1. With respect to the first, it has wholly disappeared from the demands for which the Commissioners have to make provision, the claims on account of vestrycess having been satisfied, as stated by your Excellency. 2. As to the second item, the providing of things requisite for the celebration of Divine service, it is right to state, that it not merely continues, but that, from various causes, it has been considerably increased. 3. The Commissioners, however, do not think it necessary to trouble your Excellency by entering into a consideration of these causes, or even making any statement of the amount to which they have increased this item in their expenditure; because, notwithstanding this increase, their permanent income would now defray these and all other expenses of the Commission, and even leave a very considerable balance in hand, but for the third head referred to by your Excellency, the repairs of churches, including under that head rebuildings and enlargements. It is in fact to meet the demands arising from the necessity of repairing, rebuilding, and enlarging churches, that the Perpetuity Purchase Fund has been drawn upon hitherto; that is, after the few first years of the Commission, during which the income was insufficient to meet the other expenses of the year. And it is the continuance of these wants which renders it necessary for the present year, 621. |