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Q. Where is your business located? A.

Twenty-fourth and Twenty-fifth streets, this city.

Seventh avenue,

Q. You also do manufacture some articles? A. In a very small way, women's suits.

Q. Mr. Rosenbaum, have you yourself established a minimum wage in your own establishment? A. Yes, sir, we have a minimum wage of six dollars. We employ no one under seventeen years of age and we pay no wages less than six dollars.

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Q. Have you adopted both those rules because you find it tends to produce efficiency? A. That was the primary object. We found that one of the greatest difficulties we had to contend with was the fact that the young women and men who came to us for employment were improperly educated, improperly trained. have here a statement from Mr. Churchill, president of the Board of Education, in which he tells of some six hundred thousand pupils of the public schools with only about four thousand graduated from the high schools, and it was that condition we met some years ago. We found that the girls and boys came to us and they had not even the rudiments of an education, could not spell properly.

Q. You mean they could not spell? A. Could not spell properly.

Q. Could not add? A. Could not add or subtract.

Q. Were they graduates of the public schools? A. In some cases they were graduates of the public schools, and in some cases had gone through some of the grades of the high schools. This is not a reflection on the public school system. It is a reflection on the people themselves. They were not ambitious.

Q. Have you ever investigated among your employees as to. whether or not they were able to live on the wages which were paid them? A. We have done this, Mr. Elkus, in taking on an employee, we ask a certain number of questions, try to find out how many wage earners there are in the family — in fact, we do find out we find whether the employee is living at home or whether she is boarding. If she is living at home, we find out whether her father is living, or whether she has older brothers and sisters who contribute to the support of the family, and try to conduct ourselves accordingly. It is very difficult to say what is

a living wage. Six dollars might be a living wage for a girl who is one of four or five wage earners. Ten or twelve dollars may not be a living wage for a girl who may be the main support of the family.

Q. Have you ever ascertained whether six dollars was a living wage for one who lived alone and did not contribute to the support of somebody else? A. I should say six dollars was hardly sufficient to live alone in New York city, that is for a girl to live alone, I should have said that in the beginning, less than ten per cent. get the six dollars a week.

Q. And ninety per cent. get- A. Ninety per cent. get more than six dollars, possibly ninety-five per cent. get more than six dollars.

Q. How old would you say the oldest girl was that received six dollars a week? A. The thing is not regulated by the matter of age. It is regulated altogether by her ability, by what she can do.

Q. How about length of service in your employ? A. Length of service has very little to do with it unless the girl or boy can show that he or she has ability to advance. We do go over our list of employees every year. We feel that if any employee has not advanced once a year it is either our fault or their fault. If it is their fault we want to put them in a position where they can advance.

Q. What have you done, if anything, in your own business, Mr. Rosenbaum, to train your people, to educate them. A. We have established a school in which we have a principal and twelve teachers. Two of these teachers are supplied by the Board of Education of New York city. The other ten and the principal are paid by the company. This school occupies about seven thousand five hundred square feet of space, an entire floor in one of our buildings, and in the school we endeavor to train the people to do our work properly and to be in a position to advance and to earn more money. I might tell you if you have the time to hear it just how we go about that. When we are in need of new people we try to take on only people for the lower positions, for the six dollar positions. If we have an opening for a ten, twelve or fourteen dollar girl, sixteen or eighteen dollar girl, we try to get those girls from our own ranks. A girl coming in for six dollars VOL. V 93

a week might do filing work. She is sent to the school first, but before that she is selected by the employment superintendent from all the applicants that answer the advertisement. If he considers that she is capable of taking a position he sends her then to the school and then she has to undergo an examination. Would you care to hear just about what that examination consists of?

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Q. Yes? A. I brought with me here a few examination papers selected at random. First she is asked to copy a few sample sentences, the idea being to see first of all if she is accurate, and second to get an idea of her penmanship. The sentences are very simple. I will give you one of them: On one side of the door is the sign push; on the other side pull. There are some people who are always on the pull side waiting for pull to take them up their ladder of success. Those with push go ahead, and so forth." That is designed to get an idea of her penmanship, and secondly to see if she is accurate in copying. She is then given a list of twenty words, some of which are misspelled, and she is asked to indicate which of them are misspelled, and show the proper way of spelling them, such words as shipping, believe, disappoint, proper. She is then given a few examples in simple arithmetic. She has to add a column of six or eight lines of figures, subtract, and do a little multiplication work. Then she has to do a few questions in geography. We consider geography very important. Being a mail order house we would like an employee to know whether the climate of Florida at this time of the year is different from that of North Dakota. What is the capital of Pennsylvania ? Name four of the largest states in the United States? Name five states that border on the Atlantic Ocean. Those are sample questions in geography. Fifty per cent. of the people who stand that test pass. Twenty per cent. are partial failures. Thirty per cent. are total failures and are not taken on.

Q. These are all supposed to be public school graduates? A. All supposed to be public school graduates and some of them have been through the high school. Now this particular girl says the capital of Pennsylvania is Pittsburgh. She named four of the largest cities in the United States as New York, Boston, Philadelphia and Paterson. She was unable to name five states that border on the Atlantic ocean. I could give you any number of

things of that kind to show the difficulty that an employer in this city has to contend with. Here is one girl who named the four largest cities in the United States as New York city, Pennsylvania, Chicago, St. Louis and California.

Q. Was this girl a graduate of the public school? A. I will look at her record. Her name is Miss F. Age at last birthday, seventeen. Attended public school No. 37. Did you graduate? Yes, and also attended the evening high school.

Q. Did she say how long she was in the evening high school? A. No, but she graduated from the public school. She had had three other positions before coming to us.

Q. How long had she been working? A. Apparently she took her first position in March, 1912.

Q. When was the examination? A. On January 20th.

Q. Of this year? A. 1915.

Q. That is two days ago? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did she pass the examination? A. I think I can tell you that. She got nineteen on penmanship, twenty-eight and a half on spelling—

Q. Nineteen and a half out of a hundred? A. No, they are graded in this way: Penmanship they are rated twenty per cent., spelling twenty, arithmetic thirty, geography twenty. This girl's penmanship was very good. She got nineteen, spelling twentyeight and a half out of thirty. Arithmetic twenty-four out of thirty, but on geography she got only fourteen.

Q. Did you investigate to find out why she was so poor in geography? A. I don't know.

Q. Would you mind letting me have those papers? A. Yes, sir. Now, I have another one here, you probably would be interested in. This girl graduated from public school 63, Miss U. She was fairly good on penmanship. Her spelling was very poor. She was excellent on arithmetic, but on geography she was very poor.

Q. Now, after they pass this examination and are employed, what do you do with them? A. They remain in the school.

Q. In your school? A. In our school from one week to three months. They don't spend all the time in the school. They are probably given from one to two hours per day in the school, and the balance of the time—

Q. That is at your expense? A. At our expense entirely. Q. Nothing is deducted from their pay? A. Nothing whatever. The balance of the time they spend in the department learning the practical part of the work. They get the theory in the school.

Q. Then they begin this work at six dollars a week? sir.

A. Yes,

Q. While they are being taught? A. Yes, sir. The school works in another way. I will explain just how a girl will go through the school and how she will make progress in the business. She might go into the school, study and become a file clerk getting six dollars a week. If she was ambitious she would have. an opportunity to learn order writing, which would pay her eight dollars a week.

Q. How long would it take to get from the six to the eight dollar class? A. If she really wanted to she might get into the eight dollars class as soon as there was a vacancy, as soon as she could equip herself.

Q. In a few weeks? A. In a few months, if there were an opening in the audit department, she could go to school to fit herself to apply for a position in the audit department. She is told to equip herself for the vacancy, so that she will be ready to go on.

Q. Do you allow her to do that? A. Yes, sir, but with a certain amount of judgment and discretion. She could not do that during the very busiest times. That is regulated.

Q. Now, Mr. Rosenbaum, I suppose you do these things because you find it to be a paying proposition? A. We find it to pay. We need efficient people.

Q. It is not done from philanthropic motives but from efficiency motives? A. Altogether.

Q. Now, the Commission has been hearing a good deal of discussion on this question, pro and con, as to whether or not there should be some legislation fixing minimum wages or providing for a board which would fix wages in certain trades for women and minors; now as a business man, what is your opinion on this subject; should the State interfere at all? A. We are not opposed to a minimum wage. The best evidence of that is we have established our own minimum wage, but it must be handled with

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