Q. Do you know anything about it there? A. I do not, in those states.

Q. So that you are not prepared to say there whether it was a failure or success? A. I am not.

Q. Your views are given about something that happened in 1867 in New Zealand? A. In New Zealand.

Q. Don't you know Mr. Francis that in New Zealand today they have minimum wage legislation? A. Yes but they have an entirely different plan of organization.

Q. But they have some system? A. Some system.

Q. And it has been going on since the '70s, for the last 40 or 45 years, in that length of time some years? A. Yes.

Q. I don't care particularly about how long, but for a number of years? A. Yes.

Q. Do you know what the system is there now? A. I do not. Q. Do you know whether it is successful there or not? A. I know their general plan is successful but it is an entirely different plan from what is proposed here.

Q. There is no plan proposed here; what plan do you understand there is proposed here? A. They take care of the employer as well as the employe.

Q. What we are trying to do is to get a plan, so if you have an idea there is some plan proposed here you are mistaken? A. If you wish me to state the plan that I think would be effective —

Q. That is what we would like to get your views upon? A. I will state that very distinctly, if you are going to make a minimum wage, which minimum wage would become the standard wage, because that would be the standard wage, it could not be anything else,— it does that invariably — you can take any nation that establishes the minimum wage and that minimum wage is the standard wage and if you are going to establish the standard wage then there is a standard expense and I think if the government undertakes to do that that it should also undertake to make a standard price for the work, which is the employer's end of the proposition.

Q. I do not think that anybody ever suggested that, to fix a minimum wage and a minimum price however go right ahead Mr. Francis? A. That is the point that I make, and if that standard price was made then it ought to be made on a scientific

basis which would give the employer a proper profit for his business. If the state is going to step in and state how much an employer shall pay for his labor which he is selling then it should state also a standard price which he should get for that labor which he sells, enabling him to make a reasonable profit.

Q. Have you any further suggestions to make; what was the plan you had in mind; was that the plan you meant you had in mind? A. That is the plan I have in mind, yes.

Q. Now do you draw any distinction between fixing a minimum wage or having a board fix wages in different trades where women are employed or minors other than men? A. I don't like that question the way it is put.

Q. Answer it any way you like? A. If you take the children out of that question, and I say I think they ought to be placed upon an equal basis children have got to be protected- - they have got to be taken care of.

By Commissioner DREIER:

Q. Do you mean there is a minimum wage for children, and one for women, is that your idea? A. No I don't believe in a minimum wage at all because I think it will regulate itself in the matter of business.

By Mr. ELKUS:

Q. In what way? A. I mean if there is going to be any legislation in regard to the question of wage at all it should be upon an equal basis for women and men.

Q. How about minors? A. Minors I think would have to be taken care of in some way.

Q. By the State? A. I don't think by the State.

Q. How would you suggest that they be taken care of? A. In a general sense, I think, they should be taken care of in the ordinary business way that they have been taken care of for years. For instance you can take in our business many years ago when an apprentice came into the business he had to pay some twenty or fifty pounds in England for the privilege of learning the business and he got but little if any wages for the first two or three years. That has been practically discontinued.

Q. Your business Mr. Francis is what might be called a skilled business, it requires skill for anybody who is employed in it? A. It requires skill.

Q. Now you say that wages are regulated in a general way by business, that is you mean in businesses like yours the employees are associated together and have an association which takes care of their interests in the matter of wages and hours and so forth, is that right? A. Yes, perhaps it might be well for me to explain the association which we have. We have an organization called the Printers League of America, which is for nothing else but the establishment of wages. We employ union labor. All the employers of this organization employ union labor and they have a peace compact with the unions which states they will employ their members and that all negotiations shall be on the basis of consultation, conciliation and final arbitration on any question that comes up; no strikes, no lockouts, and we have found it to be eminently successful. We have had two arbitrations since this went into effect in the latter part of 1906, and those two arbitrations were perfectly satisfactory to both parties. Everything else has been settled between the unions and our organizations by methods of consultation and conciliation.

Q. So you have no objection to your employees organizing? A. I would rather they would.

Q. Because you then have a responsible body to deal with? A. Yes.

Q. Now are you familiar at all Mr. Francis with the amount of wages paid to women and minors in employments which do not require much skill or training and where they are not organizzed? A. I have very little experience in regard to other businesses than the printing business.

Q. Have you any information yourself as to what is a living wage for women to live upon in this city? A. That is a very difficult question.

Q. Now it appeared before the commission that there were hundreds or thousands of women receiving four and four dollars and a half of week and five dollars a week and six dollars a week,

as well as men, but I am talking of women alone; from your experience as an employer employing women are you able to say and can you say whether or not that is a living wage in this city? A. Well, I should think it was pretty low but there are other things to be taken into consideration in regard to that same thing, and that is this: For instance you take a person who is not expert, even though it is not an expert, scientific proposition you are going into, if they are not accustomed to the work, anybody who goes into a position of that kind will take at least three, four or five weeks before they will be worth anything to the employer, and during that time it has been the custom in some instances I know of to hold them two weeks on absolutely nothing.

Q. I am not talking about the preparatory period; we are talking about where the average wage for years has been the amount stated? A. Wouldn't that standard wage apply to them the same as anybody else?

Q. I don't know, I just want to get your opinion as an employer? A. In the preparatory stage I should say it ought not to apply.

Q. But after the preparatory stage is over? A. After the preparatory stage I should think they ought to receive enough to live on anyway.

Q. Are you prepared to say what you think would be a living wage? A. I am not.

Q. Now do you know of any other way, where wages are below the living wage, do you know of any way by which they can be raised except by either a union or an organization of working people or by governmental action? A. In every case I should think that the commercialism of the proposition would take care of itself. There are certain things upon which you can not afford to pay more than a certain price. Now it may be that you can get that labor or you can not get that labor and the com

mercialism of it is just merely this, you can either do those things, that is you can either hire that labor at that price or you can go without the business.

Q. You mean it is regulated by the law of supply and de mand? A. Yes. Another thing I would like to state right here

is this, that the wages in New York City, as a rule, are very much higher than they are in any city in the United States, especially in our line of business.

Q. Isn't that because in your line of business the employees are so well organized? A. That is partially the reason, and at least fifty per cent. of the work that emanates in New York is not done in New York City, it is done outside, and a person on a minimum wage can afford to live in a country town very much cheaper than they could in New York City.

Q. That is the reason I take it that wages are smaller outside the State or outside the city, that is because the expense of living is smaller as well as lack of organization? A. They may be smaller in size and yet greater in purchasing power.

Q. Then is it your opinion that no matter how low the wage may be paid to women or children that there should be no action by the government at all? A. That is my opinion.

Q. You think the employees should be left to organize themselves or the matter should be left so that the employer may employ labor as cheap as he can get it? A. I think that is the commercialism of the whole proposition?

Q. You think it should be left to a purely commercial proposition? A. I certainly do.

Q. And that the State should not interfere and has no interest in the matter? A. If they do interfere they ought to go further. Q. They should not interfere unless they are willing to guarantee to the employer his price for the merchandise? A. A proper return for the work he is doing.

Q. In other words, if it was disclosed that there were in this city hundreds and thousands of women who because they were unable to organize were receiving salaries of four or five dollars a week, which turned out to be less than a fairly living wage, that nothing should be done in their cases whatever but the matter should be left to right itself on a commercial basis? A. I believe that is the only basis upon which it can be done.

Q. Now suppose it turned out, Mr. Francis, that because these women and minors received these wages, they were really a burden upon the public and upon the State and had to be taken