consisting of a representative of every one of these departments interested, fire, health, water, tenement house and the Labor Department, a joint committee which has had several meetings and there is to be a meeting next Friday of all of the heads of these departments under the auspices of this joint committee. That committee has made considerable progress in laying the foundation for a workable plan which will avoid duplication and avoid conflict between the various departments. I have talked over with Mr. Miller, for example, a plan of combining the examination of architects' plans between his department and the Fire Department. That can be done without any difficulty, I think, and with great saving of time and annoyance to the architect, and if it works between our two departments, which I am sure it will, I do not see why it could not be extended to all departments which examine plans for buildings.

Q. Then is it your idea, Commissioner, that one department should examine the plans and the other departments without passing on them themselves, take the approval of the one department? A. I think that the requirements of each department could be thoroughly understood and that one department could examine the plans.

Q. One department to approve the plans? A. One department to approve the plans.

Q. What do you think of the suggestion of putting the Building Department into the Fire Department and giving general charge of all buildings to one department as far as building construction, alteration, and the enforcement of fire laws with reference to them? A. I think the enforcement of all fire prevention laws ought to be in the Fire Department.

Q. Let me ask you this question: Isn't it a fact, that if you are going to get any real benefit out of any of the statutes for the protection of buildings and property, that you have got to have the power of enforcement in the same department which has the power of inspection and the power to pass upon the requirements? A. I think that is unquestionable.

Q. You cannot have the two things separate? A. You cannot have the inspection and the enforcing department divided.

Q. That is the conclusion we came to two years ago when this

subject came up; now if that is so is not the only remedy in order to do away with the number of inspections which are now required to be made; to consolidate some of the departments? A. Yes, I think that's true.

Q. In the city of New York? A. Yes.

Q. There is no complaint of this kind that we have heard anywhere but from the city of New York and if a number of these departments were put into one department do you think it would be possible then to do away with this number of inspections and still have the law adequately and properly enforced? A. Yes. I think, if you will allow me to say so, that probably a correct division would be something like this: The State Labor Department through the Industrial Board to have the power of regulation, making regulations, and the power of enforcement should be in the local departments, that of fire prevention in the Fire Department, that relating to health and hygiene and sanitation of buildings in the Health Department.

Q. Then you would take away the jurisdiction of the State Labor Department from the city of New York as to enforcing the law? A. As to enforcing the law. As to making regulations of the requirement in factories, that should remain.

Q. That was suggested to the Factory Commission two years ago and was very bitterly opposed? A. I know it has been discussed, but the suggestion is in the line of reducing jurisdictions and in the line of concentrating administration.

Q. Even if the State Labor Department did not give up its right to enforce its own laws there could be a consolidation with the saving of men and money of these different city departments having charge of buildings? A. I think so, yes, sir.

Q. Commissioner Adamson, turning to question 7, do you believe there should be a Conference Board of the heads of the city and State Departments as indicated there? A. As I have just stated, we made two months ago a start in that matter.

Q. That is in the city alone? A. The Labor Department has been represented and there is to be a meeting next Friday of all of these departments which I have mentioned; the purpose of that meeting is to confer and get the concensus of opinion as to a working plan which will avoid the conflicts and duplications which

have been complained of. There has been considerable progress made on that already. It has been discussed here as a possibility but we have started and it has been under way for almost two months.

Mr. ELKUS: Any questions, Mr. Chairman?

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. You say, Commissioner, that you have personally not had complaints of either multiplicity of inspections or duplication of inspections? A. I haven't had any specific complaints; I have heard general complaints.

Q. There has been a lot of duplication and there must be something wrong, but no doctor, it seems to me, can diagnose a case unless he has some symptoms, and we are looking for particular cases where this duplication of inspections exists, and then perhaps we can do something to afford relief? A. I have had no specific complaints.

By Commissioner PHILLIPS:

Q. Do you know of any? A. No, I do not. I have heard rumors but I do not know of any specific case.

By Mr. ELKUS:

Q. The complaints you heard were with reference to enforcing the law such as the putting of wire glass in windows? A. Most of the complaints have been regarding that.

Q. And also sashes? A. Yes.

Q. Now from your own knowledge of that subject are those two things necessary? A. Which two things?

Q. Wire glass in windows where there are fire escapes and the metal frames? A. I should think if the provisions of the Labor Law are complied with in every respect as to other exits they might not be.

Q. Then you don't have to have fire escapes? A. No, if the provisions of the Labor Law are complied with in every respect. Q. Then in many cases the Labor Department has permitted the owner, if he desires, to take down the fire escape? A. Yes.

Q. Because he found it useless? A. Yes, and we have had requests from property owners for permission from the Fire De

partment to take down fire escapes in buildings where the Labor Department has ordered windows fire proofed.

Mr. ELKUS: That is all, Commissioner, thank you very much.

Hon. MARCUS M. MARKS (President of the Borough of Manhattan), addressed the Commission.

By Mr. ELKUS:

Q. Mr. President, you are the President of the Borough and have been since the first of January? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you read this statement of the purpose of this hearing to-day? A. I have.

Q. We should be very glad to hear from you about the matter? A. Yes, sir. With your consent I will read a statement which I have prepared in answer to your questions:

The duplication of inspections and the conflict or orders issued by the State, City and Borough authorities, in connection with the buildings of New York, have reached such a state that both owners and tenants are in despair.

The most important consideration in Government is to foster respect for the law.

Recent developments in the activities of conflicting powers have tended to weaken this respect for the law. When the law demands that you swing your doors outward, and another law demands that you change this arrangement on account of interference with passers-by on the sidewalk, it is pretty hard to be patient with the law. When a City Department orders the owner to erect a fire cscape from the roof to the sidewalk, and he complies with the law, and a Borough Department issues an order for the removal of the fire escape from the sidewalk, on the ground that it is an cncumbrance, the citizen becomes demoralized and loses some of his respect for the law. When one Department gives permission to connect two buildings, so that one fire escape may answer for both, and another Department orders fire-proof doors to be erected in the openings which have been permitted, there is a wail of despair.

I find that in New York City at least seven departments can send inspectors to a citizen's house or building. These are: (1) the Bureau of Buildings; (2) the Fire Prevention Bureau; (3)

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the Fire Department; (4) the Health Department; (5) the Tenemcut House Department; (6) Department of Water Supply, Gas and Electricity; and (7) License Bureau. Add to this, the State Labor inspection, and we have a total of eight legal inspections which can be made. In addition to this, cach one of these inspectors has the right to lay down rules and instructions as to what shall or must be done to comply with the law, as his department sces it.

No one can deny that these duplications and conflicts come to such a point that we are bound to call a halt.

There are some who feel that New York is not a manufacturing city. They are not posted as to the facts. New York is one of the greatest manufacturing centers in the world, and to drive factories out of New York drives out homes also, because, unless there is an opportunity to earn wages, or to make profits in a factory, there is an equal lack of opportunity to be able to afford a home in the city. Drive out the factories and you drive out the homes and make it impossible for working people to live decently in our city.

The ill effects will be felt by all classes of the community. Worst of all, this conflict of orders from various departments brings about a lack of respect for the law.

I have been advised that it is quite likely that the situation will be further complicated by the addition of another authority which is entering the field. The conflict between Borough, City and State authority will be increased if the Industrial Relations Committee, which is now dealing with manufacturing problems, should decide upon measures which will again conflict. I hope that this will not happen.

There are two things to do in handling the present situation; the first is to bring about the greatest possible co-operation between the heads of the various bureaus under the present laws.

The plan which I have suggested is the establishment of a Board of Inspectors. I want to say I have already done a great deal to help bring this about by having conferences with the various commissioners and asking my engineers to do the same and arranging between them to have these conferences, and now I understand there is a regular system of conferences going on which is going to be very helpful. I have recommended strongly to the Mayor in a