of these Laws in keeping, as formerlie secretarie of this province. Wee are willing to have them compared with these bills; wee know ym to be true Copies; wee are readie to prove that they wer passed into acts. Livet. Governor. I owne that I have the Bills by me, and doe believe that book may be a true Copie, and all which you have alledged may be answered in one word, but goe on and say what you have to say. Mr Loyd. That is all wee desire, if these be the Laws that wer enacted; Wee came not here to dispute the forme and validitie of the Laws by the want of a seal, or their not being Legallie published; But whether these be the Laws or not that wer made and published, which you confess; Soe the matter is att an end. Livet. Governor. Have you anie more to offerr. Mr. Speaker. Doe you call us in question by what authoritie wee doe use these Laws, when you have jointlie along with us executed them? Mr Lloyd. Who can be Judge whether these Laws be in force or not. None can be Judges but those that made them, since ther is no order from the king and Councill declarring them void; wee desire that they may be put in execuon. It wer hard that the want of the affixing a Seal, or some such other Ceremonie, should destroy our Laws. And if wee allow this att present wee must expect it for the future, That everie new Governor, finding fault with some omission or another in the making or publishing of our Laws, will declare them void, which is of evil Consequence, and wee doe not know that ever wee shall have more Laws. Livet. Governor. Have you anie more to offerr. Mr. Speaker. Wee have, But this may suffice att present; Saving to our Selves the making farther ansr and defence when wee shall hear what is offered agt our Laws being in force, Which wee desire to hear. Patrick Robinson, Esqr. Gentl., You have desired his Excell. to Cause the officers to putt in execuon the Laws contained in this List, and have made a Large preamble or Introduction to this desire, wherin you have been Unfair in repeating the words of the Charter. In your paper you say: ["also granting unto the said Wm. penn, his "deputie or Livets, by virtue of the said royall charter, full, free & "absolute power, by and with the assent of the freemen of the said "province, to make, enact and publish any Laws whatsoever, for "anie, and appertaining either to the publick state, peace, or saftie "of the said Countrie, or unto the private utilitie of particular per"sons, according to their best discretion."] Whereas, the 4th paragraph of the Letters patents is in these words: ["And for as much "as wee have hereby made and ordained the aforesd Wm. penn, his "Heirs and Assigns, the true and absolute proprietors of all the "Lands and dominions aforesaid; know yee therfore, that wee, re"posing speciall trust & confidence in the fidelitie, wisdom, justice "and provident circumspection of the said Wm. penn, for us, our "heirs and Successors, doe grant free, full and absolute power, by "virtue of these presents, to him & his heirs, to his and their depu"ties and Livets, for the good and happie government of the said "Countrie, to ordain, make & enact, & under his and their Sealls to "publish anie Laws whatsoever for the raising of Monie for the pub"lick uses of the said province, or for anie other ends appertaining "either unto the publick state or safety."] Where it is plain that your Laws ought to be published under some seal, either of Wm. penn, or of his deputie or Livet., which is the defect you now lye under, and wold Conceale. None of those Laws (you desire may be putt in execuon) wer ever SOE published, nor are to be anie where seen or found, nor is there anie standard of such Laws to be produced to his Excell. for his approbation. You have books of Laws, & so have I, but they are not attested by any officer for true Copies, and there are not any originall rolls under seal to compare them with, Which is manifest to you all. You doe Likewise alledge that the greatest bodie of Laws wer transmitted & presented to the Council by Mr penn, which is a doubt. But if they wer, it will signifie nothing; for as they are to be published under seal, so also wer they to be transmitted under seal paragraph 7th: ["Our_fur"ther will and pleasure is, that a transcript or duplicate of all Laws "which shall be SOE AS AFORESAID made and published within this "province, shall, within five years after the making therof, be trans"mitted & delivered to the privie Councill for the time being, of us, "our heirs and Successors; and if anie of the sd Laws within the space of six mo's after that they shall be soe transmitted & deli"vered, &c."] (Soe transmitted) is under seal Soe as published, and if never published under seal, consequentlie never soe transmitted. You must not think to claim that of right wch is meer grace. Their Maties are tender of their Honour and interest in forreign plantaons, and take care to prevent their alienaon from the Crown, by appointing such methods of governmt in their Letters pattents as may be most for their preservation, which they expect shall be punctuallie observed. The Seal is the soule and Life of the Laws, as you find by the charter, and was never affixed to them, or anie of them. Wee are readie to hear you offerr anie thing to the contrarie. Also, by your own confession, manie of your Laws are not transmitted, and manie or most of them dissonant to the Laws of England; wheras, his Excell. is commanded to pass such Laws as are as neer as can be, agreeable to the Laws of England. Mr Speaker. It is not an injunction to affix the seal, but a Leave of a thing given to Gor penn, as a mark of favour, which hee may use if he please, but there is no obligaon to use the seal. It is onlie a Ceremonie; and so sayes over again what hee said before. Leivt. Governor. Mr Speaker, neither does the king enjoin the making of Laws when hee gives the power of making them, But when this power is exerted by you, It ought to be done in the manner the king directs, becaus you have not power to make ym otherwise. Mr Lloyd and Mr White repeat their former arguments, and al ledge that the sealing is not materiall to the making of a Law, but the consent of the Governor, Councill & assembly. Mr Andrew Robinson. The agreement of the Governor, Councill, and people, to the passing of a Law, is but like a deed drawn by articles of agreemt, which is no deed untill it be sealed and delivered, tho attested by the parties' hand. Mr White acknowledged there may be defect in the officers, one or other, but we cannot tell but they may be enrolled and sealed somewhere or other; perhapps they may. Wee know these are our Laws, and wee have executed them, and it will runn us all into confusion, & all our acts of govermnt and proceedings in Courts of Judicature must be condemned, if wee allow the Laws are not of force and in being. Mr pat. Robinson. de non apparentibus et non existentibus eadem est ratu. Samll Carpenter. If now they are our Laws I will stand by them. I had rather Loose all I have in the world than part with our Laws. Mr White. It does not appear that the Laws were to be made under the scal, onlie to be published under the seal; therfore, they were made by a good authoritie, and if any thing be wanting it is not our fault who made them, & we ought not to sufferr by the neglect. The fault may be remedied. Mr Lloyd. I am surprized the members of Councill, who have a joint interest with us in the province, and have acted by these Laws and satt in Courts of Judicature, should speak agt their validitie. Our priviledges are yours. Andrew Robinson, Esqr., Chiefe Justice. Gentl., wee are well satisfied it is so, & heartilie wish the prosperitie of the province in everie respect; But it is all our duties to know the strength and Validitie of our Laws, that the ministers of Justice may be satisfied of the validitie of their Laws, and that they proceed upon good grounds; and also, that the people may be satisfied of the Justice executed, and what they must expect if they transgress. Mr pat. Robinson. Gentl. His Excell the Governor has a tender regard to this province & the peace of the people therin; But you must Likewise consider that hee must be tender of the prerogative of the Crown. Hee hath come hither by their maties' comands, not of his owne seeking. I am verie well assured that notwithstanding all this wee have heard in this meeting, His Excell. will goe as farr as may be to serve the province in bringing all to rights. His Excell. cannot agree to the execuon of any Law that is repugnant to the Law of England, therfore I wold advise you to Look over again that List of Laws, and consider with yourselves what may be for your owne peace and benefit; I am pretty well satisfied you may order the List so as that his Excell. will agree that the Laws therin contained shall be executed by the officers in the government, untill ́his excell. shall receive orders from their maties concerning the same. But this I must tell you, that you must not think to offerr that Law concerning wrecks, for his excell. has a particular Comission for Vice admirall, which reaches this province and the three Lower Counties. Mr Speaker. We are well satisfied to doe this; wee matter not the Law of wrecks; Believe that will make no rubb. Wee desire you will be pleased to request this of the Governor. [25° May, 1693. Att a Councill Held at philadelphia on a Thursday the 25th of May 1693, Afternoon. The Comittee of the Councill doe return, That the representatives appointed a Committe to join them this day to read over the List of Laws, and to offer such of them as they think convenient to his Excell. to order ym to be executed by the officers of the government untill their Maties pleasure should be further known; which, if his Excell. will promise to grant, they will then proceed with all expedion to the other bussines. The Councill are of opinion and doe advise his Excell. to grant their desire. His Excell. did send to the house of representatives to acquaint them that he was readie to grant that some Laws should be executed, Untill their Maties pleasure should be known, and to desire them to proced upon the other affairs befor them wtout loss of time. [26th May, 1693. Att a Councill Held att philadelphia on Friday the 26th of May, 1693. His Excell. did send for Livet. Gor Markham, and understanding him to be indisposed to come abroad by the gout, & desirous to have a full board, did adjourne to his house. Att the House of the Livet. Governor. His Excell. did offerr that hee understood there was something in articles agt Thomas Lloyd appearing in the Minute book of assembly, 1689, wherin he is charged with defaults in the administration of Justice, Which may serve if there be occasion, to defeat their allega tion that Justice was dulic executed, and ordered the perusall of the book. Ordered also, the Councill doe resolve into a Comittee this afternoon, to Consider of an answer to the Remonstrance of the representatives, which they are desired to putt in writting & return to his excell. undr their hands, for his better informaon, being a stranger in the Countrie. - POST MERID. 3 A Clock afternoon, the 26th of May, 1693. The Committe having drawen up their answer to the remonstrance, doe sign it, and afterwards present it to his Excell. The Councill's answer to the representatives' remonstrance, philad. the 26th of May, 1693. Wheras, the Governor hath been pleased to appoint us a Comittee of the Councill to give our opinion of the remonstrance delivered to him by the assemblie, Wee having mett & considred the same, doe with submission deliver our sense, That wheras the assemblie doe say: That they "conceive that their desires wer not grounded on "mistakes in relation to the proprietor's absence. Wee conceive it 66 was Because they doe earnestlie beseech that their proceedings in "Legislation may be according to the usuall methods and Laws of "this governmt, founded upon the Late king's Lres patents, desiring "the same may be confirmed unto them as their rights and Liber"ties;" The which themselves have overthrown & declined, by their choosing representatives to serve in assemblie according to the Governor's writts, founded on their Maties' Letters patents, before they did ever assert or insist on their former methods or frame of government. And wheras, they say that they "doe wt all readiness and "cheerfullnes owne accordingly to be the right of the king and "Queen." But they do not mention king Wm. & Queen Mary, which wee conceive to be a great Omission, if not a slight putt upon ym. And wheras, they say that they "apprehend the reasons for "the Superseding the proprietor's governancie are founded on mis"informations, for that the Courts of Justice wer open in all the "Counties of this govermt, & Justice dulie executed." Wee doe say that wee can instance in severall particulars where justice was delayed, if not denyed, & therfor not duly executed. And wheras, they say, that they "doe not apprehend that the province was in danger of being lost from the Crown." To which we ansr, That wee doe not know of anie care that was taken for the defence therof. Andrew Robeson, Lasse Cock. William Salway, |