establish a government upon such principles as would most promote the public good, without consulting the opinions of another body, then he would say we might only consult our own minds and the public good; but when we are acting under circumstances such as are existing around us, we are to ask ourselves not only whether we are promoting the public good by our acts, but we are to ask ourselves, will our acts be accceptable to the people of Pennsylvania.

He

It is in vain for us to say that this would be a good provision, or that that would be a good provision, unless the people of the commonwealth will accept them from us. It is vain for us to insert any provisions in the constitution, unless we have reasonable expectation that the people of the commonwealth will accept of them from us. Well, sir, what is the report of your superintendant of common schools? Nearly one half of the people of the commonwealth opposed to your school system, large minorities opposed to it in the accepting districts, and some two hundred and fifty districts which will have nothing to do with it. Then you have a large number of persons in the commonwealth who are opposed altogether to amending the constitution. Then he would ask you if these persons were going to come in and support innovations of this kind. Gentlemen must recollect that a large number of the citizens of this commonwealth believe our constitution to be a matchless instrument. would ask you if there was not a large conservative party in the commonwealth, who would vote against your constitution, no matter what you put into it. This was the situation in which we were now placed. Then he would ask the real friends of education, whether they were going to build up a structure of this kind, which must inevitably fall, and will perhaps, bring down with it the whole system of education. He professed to be a friend of education, and as an evidence of it, he would stand by the school system which we now have, and he was impressed with the belief that it would not take twenty years in Pennsylvania, as it has done in some of the other states, to come into complete and successful operation, and become popular with the people. And when it did become popular with the people, if it was desirable to have a provision of this kind in the constitution, it can be inserted under the provision which he had no doubt would be adopted for future amendments to the constitution. He would leave the whole matter with the legislature, so that the present school system might have a fair opportunity of becoming universal and popular with the people, as he had no doubt it would; and we would not endanger it with any such provision as that proposed now to be inserted. in the constitution. In consequence of not having said any thing before since this subject of education was under consideration, he had thought it to be his duty to have said thus much for the purpose of preventing the impression from going abroad, from the votes he had given, that he was opposed to the subject of education. He therefore now hoped that the committee would cease running after shadows, and hold on to the substance.

Mr. MERRILL said he thought the gentleman from the city of Philadelphia had accepted of a modification which was calculated to destroy the effect of the whole amendment. He thought if there was any system of a higher grade than the common schools to be established, it was to be done under some law of the commonwealth, and if so there ought to be as much supervision over it as over the common schools. It was quite

as important to have an officer to supervise these seminaries of learning, as to supervise the common schools.

Mr. CHANDLER, of the city of Philadelphia, explained, that he had accepted of the modification upon the condition, that if any provision was made in the constitution for these higher seminaries of learning, then that provision should be attached to it.

Mr. MERRILL said that might answer very well, perhaps. It must be recollected, however, that we have some two or three sections to the constitution on this subject of education, and it would seem to him to be most proper to have this provision applying to the whole of them He, therefore, thought that the safest and best plan would be, for the gentleman to wait until the other sections were brought up and acted upon, and then introduce this as a third section, applicable to all of these institutions. He thought that this would obviate the difficulty in relation to this matter now existing, and he thought it much better that it should be arranged in this way, than to have all in one section. In relation to the charge of the public funds applicable to the purposes, he thought the gentleman from Indiana, (Mr. Clarke) was right. He thought it entirely improper that we should have two sets of officers taking charge of the funds of the commonwealth. He believed the better plan would be, to separate the supervision of your public schools and seminaries of learning, from the distribution of the funds of the commonwealth entirely. If any person was appointed superintendent or commissioner, or whatever you may please to term him, to look over these institutions of learning, he apprehended he would have business enough on his hands, if he performed his duty, without having the care of any of the funds of the commonwealth; and he took it that the care of the funds of the state ought to be in other hands. He would, therefore, respectfully suggest, whether it would not be the better plan to provide in the constitution a section, that the legisla ture should provide for the supervision of the whole of these institutions in a law to that effect. If we commence going into detail, we will most certainly get into difficulty, and therefore, he thought we should merely give general directions to the legislature. He hoped that such a provis ion would be adopted, as would make it imperative on the legislature to establish schools, and then leave the whole of the matters of detail to their wisdom and experience. He hoped, therefore, that the gentleman's amendment would be withdrawn, or that it would be so amended as to make it as general as possible.

Mr. FLEMING thought there was no necessity for our introducing into the constitution, such a provision as that proposed by the gentleman from the city of Philadelphia. It occured to his mind that the question presented to our consideration, amounted to nothing more nor less than this. Will we provide in the constitution for the election of an officer, whose duty it shall be to superintend our seminaries of learning, or will we leave that matter to the legislature? It is a part and parcel of the details connected with the common school system, and that was the only question now presented for the consideration and decision of this body, at this time. This being the case, it certainly appeared to him that we ought not to encum ber the constitution with this matter, which was nothing more nor less than a matter of detail. Now, by a reference to the section already adop ted by this body, it will be seen that ample power is given to the legisla

ture to provide for all the necessary officers to carry the system of education fully into effect. Then is it necessary for us to go on with details farther than to make such general provision as will enable the legislature fully to carry out the views of the people in relation to this important matter. The first section of this article says that "the legislature shall continue to provide by law for the establishment of common schools throughout the state." Now he thought it necessarily followed, that if they were authorized to continue to provide for the establishment of common schools, they had the power to provide all necessary officers to carry the provisions of the law fully and effectually into operation. Then the only question left for us to determine is, will we take away the authority, will we take the details out of the hands of the legislature, and make these provisions ourselves. There are objections to going into these details, some of which were very forcibly urged yesterday by the gentleman from Beaver, and the gentleman from Allegheny, and thus far he agreed with them. He did not consider that so far as we have gone in relation to this subject of education, we had made any such material alteration as would affect a single vote, or a single individual in the commonwealth; but if we go on to establish new officers and new institutions in the constitution, which will impose an additional tax upon the people of the commonwealth, it appeared to him that it would have a detrimental effect upon the system of education itself. Now this provision might be found in practice not to answer the purpose so fully as we expected. The officer proposed to be created by it, is to have the whole control of the schools, and is to be their general head; but it may be found in practice to be more desirable and proper, to leave this authority in the hands of the secretary of the commonwealth, where it now rests. It will always be important that a fit individual-a man conversant with the whole system from the beginning to the end of it, should be retained in that situation. It will always be a situation attended with a vast deal of labor, and will require a great deal of industry and inquiry, and on that account it would not be desirable to have it filled with new men, year after year, because every person must at once see the importance of keeping an individual in that situation who is perfectly conversant with the whole system, and master of his business; and it may be found that it may be better to employ an individual clerk in one of the departments, in order to give the head of that department an opportunity of attending to this business, which he may be so capable of doing credit to.

In a frugal government like ours, there may be a saving to the people in disposing of this office in this way, while at the same time, it will be giving us perhaps an opportunity of getting a better officer than we otherwise could get; and it might be found that to provide for the election of an officer to take charge of those institutions, would be an experiment which would not work well in practice. He considered that ample power was given to the legislature to carry the school system into full effect in the manner most suitable to attain that object, and therefore he felt inclined to vote against this proposition.

Mr. CHANDLER, of the city of Philadelphia, would beg leave to say, that if there was any thing of detail in the amendment he had submitted, it was very trifling indeed, and he considered these objections, in relation to detail, as entitled to very little consideration. If gentlemen would turn

to the constitution of Massachusetts, they would find that the people of that state, with a view of fostering the military spirit, had made provision in that instrument for the appointment of captains and other subordinate officers of their militia.

How much more important is it then, that we should have our citizens trained in the paths of knowledge, than that the state of Massachusetts should have her citizens trained in the science of arms. In the constitution of the state of New York, a provision is made for the sales of certain lands, and the appropriation of certain tolls on her canals for purposes of education. This looked something like details, and this was in the revised constitution of that state. Then it was to be found that in other states, they made provision in their constitution in relation to the manner in which their schools were to be established, and the funds to be applied to their support. Now he did not ask that we should have a legal enactment in the constitution on this subject, but he desired that the subject of education should be spoken of, and that we should have an officer whose duty it shall be to superintend and encourage the schools, and remedy defects in the system. But gentlemen say that the legislature can make ample provision for this object. Now we all know what influ ences operate on the legislature. We all know how many colleges have been endowed by the legislature, and we know that it has become so unpopular a matter, that gentlemen will scarcely venture now to vote for such an appropriation. He then had no desire that your school system should be neglected through some new views of popularity.

Mr. SILL said he would state in a very few words, the views taken by the minority of the committee on this subject, which he thought would tend to correct the misapprehensions which seemed to be entertained, as to the views of the minority of the committee. When the committee on the seventh article took this matter into consideration, it occured to them at once that there was a very important interest which had sprung up in this commonwealth, since the formation of the constitution of 1790.

He considered the matter of public schools and the interest involved in it, in a moral and intellectual point of view, as of the utmost importance to the state, and he thought he was not incorrect, when he stated that it had been admitted by every gentleman who had spoken on the subject, that this subject of education involved considerations more important than any other article in the constitution. In this point of view, and under these consideration, the committee were induced to look around and examine the progress of the system in other places. They were aware that the subject was a new one in this commonwealth, that the interests involved in it were great, and that not much was to be gathered from confining themselves at home, and they thought it proper to look abroad at the lessons of experience in other states. We thought it proper to carry search into other communities which had fostered interests of this kind, and among whom they had flourished, and come to maturity; and we found that in every community where these interests had been viewed with that importance, which they deserved, where they had thrived, flourished, and been productive of much good, they had resorted to the same means of conducting them, now proposed by this committee. In the kingdom of Prussia, where the most had been effected by this system of public schools, a country which has set a pattern to England and France

and all other intellectual countries in the old world; a country to which one of the most enlightened states in this Union, has sent a public agent for the purpose of examining their school system; they are conducted there by having placed at the head of these schools, one of the first dignitaries of the land, and not only that, but one of the first ministers of state, the minister of instruction. Well, sir, what are his duties? He has the care and superintendence of the whole of the institution, of the whole of the finances connected therewith, not only the expenditures, but the receipts for, school purposes. This same plan was adopted in Connecticut, and he believed also in Massachusetts. In Connecticut, there is appointed by law, a superintendent of public schools. In Michigan, he believed the same office is recognized. Now what was proposed to be the duties of these officers, according to the views of the minority of the committee, as laid before the convention in their report? Why they are to have the care and management of the public funds applicable to this object, and the superintendence of the public schools. Now he apprehended that in this point of view, if any officer was to be appointed by law for these purposes, he would have these duties imposed upon him. He apprehended that the appointment of an officer of such high and responsible duties, by a constitutional provision, would be productive of more good than if he were created by law.

In the state of Connecticut, they have what is called a commissioner of the school fund, who has the whole care and management of the fund. Well, sir, it is a fact known to many of the members of this committee, that under his care and management the school fund, has prospered to such extent, as to afford the means almost to educate the whole of the children of the commonwealth; but sir, there is still a defect there, and the system does not answer all the purposes that might be expected of it. It is not so beneficial as many think it ought to be, and what is the reason? Why sir, although the funds are ample, and they are judiciously managed by the commissioner of the school fund, still there is one defect, and what is it? It is the disbursement of the funds, or rather the expenditure of them. The commissioner pays over the funds to those who have the direction of the schools, and there his duty ceases; and whether they are judiciously applied; whether the schools are well kept, or whether the instruction is proper or not, it is a matter of which he can have no conHere however, the committee propose to increase the duties of those officers. We propose that they shall not only have the management of these funds, but that they shall also see to the application of them; that they should not only carefully manage and superintend the school fund, but they should see every dollar of it judiciously applied, and to the best possible purpose; that they should see to the whole direc tion of the schools throughout the state, and in the course of the year visit every school district, and if possible, every school house in the state, and see that proper teachers are employed and proper books used, and suitable studies pursued, and that a report of all this should be made annually to the legislature at the commencement of its session. Now, in his humble opinion, this was the only way in which a school system can ever finally succeed. We may raise funds sufficient to keep our schools open at the public expense, for the period of six months in the year; but if the disbursements of the funds are not seen to, if the qualifications of teachers are not examined into, and in short, if we do not have a general

cern.