had thought that those services were of any great benefit, because he always had observed that the usual confusion and distraction of bodies of this kind prevailed the moment the minister left the president's chair. He would, however, compensate them, but that compensation should be far from that which the members of this convention receive, who have to attend here six hours a day, in performing a service for the good of the community. He would have no objection to voting to establish the principle that these gentlemen should be paid, but he could not sanction a principle by which they were to receive three dollars for two minutes' service. He was sorry, therefore, that while he was willing to give his assent that they should be paid an adequate compensation, he could not agree to the amount proposed to be paid. Some gentlemen have approved the payment of this sum, because they were opposed to these men being paid from the first. Now he did not think that any man had a right to make this distinction. Neither the gentleman from Philadelphia county, nor any other gentleman, had the right to make this distinction. If they had desired to make this distinction, they should have taken exception to the resolution at the time it was before the convention. But the gentleman did not take exception to it then; therefore he has no right to do so now. He has accepted of the service of these men, and therefore he should pay them or vote that the commonwealth, which is able to bear all burdens, should pay them for him. For these reasons, he would vote to compensate them in proportion to the services rendered, and if they would not be satisfied with that, he should think they were not what they professed to be; because, if it was money alone which they performed service for, they were covetous.

Mr. HEISTER believed with the gentleman from Crawford, that this discussion was calculated to wound the feelings of these gentlemen when it came to their ears. He was sorry that the gentleman from Adams had thrown this question upon the convention at a time when it was unexpected, and when the convention were unprepared to act upon it. Since, however, it has been introduced, he would respectfully suggest to the gentleman from Adams the propriety of modifying his amendment, so as to make the sum of two hundred and fifty dollars-fifty dollars a piece-to those clergymen who had officiated. He was of opinion that if it was thus modified, we might get a vote upon it without farther difficulty.

Mr. STEVENS would do any thing to accommodate gentlemen, and put an end to a discussion which was costing the state more than the sum proposed to be paid to those gentlemen. He therefore modified his resolution by striking out "three hundred and fifty dollars," and inserting "two hundred and fifty."

Mr. BROWN, of the county of Philadelphia, said it might be that this debate would not be very creditable to us if it was looked at in a pecuniary point of view; and he knew it was a delicate question. It was not the amount of money which he regarded, but it was the principle which was to be considered. He believed that this was the first time in this commonwealth, that it had been attempted to vote public money for this purpose, and although it is but a small beginning, we do not know to what it may lead. If we set this example, the legislature may see fit to carry it out and perpetuate it. by the proceedings of the convention of 1790, that they had adopted a similar resolution to the one we

He saw,

had adopted in the commencement of our session, asking of the clergy of the place to open the convention with prayer, but he no where found among their proceedings that they had paid them, or attempted to pay them any thing. His feelings were altogether on the side of the clergy, and in favor of this resolution, but this was not the place to consult feelings when we have a solemn duty to perform to our constituents, and to the country at large. If we adopt this resolution and establish this precedent, where will it end? When we go to Philadelphia he presumed we would adopt a similar resolution, and invite the clergy of that city to perform the same duty, and if the one or two hundred clergymen of that place attend, we shall be under the same obligation to compensate them, which we are to compensate these.

Again, to whom will this money be paid if it is appropriated by the con vention? Will there be any thing on the records to show for whom it was appropriated, and to whom it was paid. Our secretaries and other officers are known. We passed resolutions to employ them, and they are known to your committee of accounts when their accounts come to be settled, and it is known to whom the money is paid, but this was not the case with these gentlemen-they are not known to your committee of accounts. He thought this was a dificulty, and a very great difficulty, into which we have been thrown. Now he was willing to go as far as any gentleman in contributing to make up an adequate compensation for the benefits we have received from the services of these gentlemen, and he thought it would be the best plan to leave every man to gratify his own feelings in this way, and contribute what suits his own convenience. He did not doubt for a moment, that if it had been suspected when the resolution was introduced, asking these gentlemen to officiate, that the public treasury was to be drawn upon for an indefinite sum, but it would have been rejected by a very large majority of this convention. Now be did not know but that it might he considered an insult to those gentlemen, for us to say to them, that they should be put down at the salary the legislature saw fit to give us-three dollars a day-for the services they had rendered. The gentleman from Adams, however, may be right in the sum he has introduced as a fit compensation to be offered them, and he may be familiar with their wishes on this subject, but he did not wish to place them and the convention in this awkward predicament, and would, therefore, vote against the resolution submitted by the gentleman from Adams.

Mr. STEVENS deemed it right here to say that he had never spoken to any of these reverend gentleman on the subject, nor had he heard any thing from any of their friends on the subject. He hoped, therefore, that gen tlemen would not consider that they had any thing to do in bringing this matter before the convention. He had considered the amount first named in his resolution as a proper sum to be offered to them without consulting any one. He had modified and reduced the sum for the purpose putting an end to the discussion and of perhaps saving a thousand dollars to the commonwealth, but as it had not effected that object, he now mod fied his resolution and put it back to "three hundred and fifty dollars," and would let it sink or swim at that sum.

Mr. BROWN resumed. He said that it might be thought hereafter tha they were instrumental in having this resolution introduced, and in conse

quence of this it may prevent deliberative bodies hereafter from accepting of their services, because they think that they will be compelled to pay them if they do; and they will say at once that they are not anthorized to appropriate the public money for this purpose. He was satisfied that if this resolution carried, we would invite the clergymen to attend when we went to Philadelphia, because he had no doubt that many would now vote to pay them, because we were involved in this matter, who would not agree to accept of their services again. He did not therefore wish to do this injury, and prevent bodies of this kind from having the services of clergymen, when they could be had without charge, and he should therefore vote against the resolution.

Mr. FLEMING was well aware that if these reverend gentlemen had heard the debate on this subject, it would have been exceedingly unpleasant to them. As to the propriety of adopting the resolution, he had but a word to say, and that was that he thought it would have been much better to have taken the vote without debate; because it would be obvious that the discussion which we have had, has not changed a single vote, as we all have our peculiar notions in relation to this matter, and we are not to be debated out of them, or reasoned out of them, by a discussion of either one or two days. Inasmuch as this question can be postponed for a few days, without doing any injustice to those gentlemen who have performed this service, and there was no hope of bringing this debate to a close, he would move to postpone the farther consideration of the resolution until Saturday next, hoping that when it was taken up at that time, that a vote might be taken upon it without farther discussion.

Mr. M'DOWELL, then moved to postpone the farther consideration of the resolution indefinitely.

Mr. HEISTER said, if the gentleman from Adams, would modify his resolution so as to reduce the sum to two hundred and fifty dollars, he would then move the previous question.

Mr. STEVENS said, he had modified it twice to suit the views of other gentlemen, without having the effert of checking the discussion, and he would now let it take its chance at what it stood, and if it was adopted, well and good, and if not, it was a matter for the convention and not for him to feel ashamed about.

Mr. KEIM hoped this resolution would be indefinitely postponed. He was one of those who as a Pennsylvanian, thought this a strange proceeding in the convention. Without entering largely into the subject, the usual authority of precedent seemed absent, at least as to the proceedings of all the public assemblies that had met for political purposes in this commonwealth. Religious controversies should be kept as separate as possible, from the civil policy of the country, and in that respect he believed that the founder of Pennsylvania was extremely guarded and cautious, lest the same spirit of intolerance might be promoted here which had prevailed in the northern country.

Although he entertained an opinion in this matter, he was willing to exercise his right in the expression of it, conceding however due courtesy to those from whom he was bound conscientiously to differ, and in taking his position from the proceedings of our early legislatures he could not find any trace of history that authorized the employment of a single

individual in the capacity proposed by this resolution, much less had he been able to discover any justification from that source, for the employ men, of four persons, as were proposed to be paid by this resolution. There was then much to be dreaded in this sweeping effort to establish a new precedent, doubtful at least in its consequences, and, most certainly, opening the door to dissentions in religious creeds, which, of all other subjects, has been more productive of evil than good to the communities in which they have been agitated. We are here not to take cognizance of these things, except so far as irreligion may have become predominant and destructive of our civil rights and privileges. In this respect, no complaints have ever been heard from any quarter. On the contrary, every quarter of the land teems with the most flattering intelligence of a progression of blessings emenating from the exercise of the benign principles of a gospel dispensation.

As a subject of retrenchment and reform, however, this expenditure comes legitimately before us, and in that aspect, it is impossible to approve it, nor can its adoption have any salutary effect whatever, but rather be the means of forming a precedent that will be quoted in the future, at an enormous cost, and the beginning of an uncalled for and extravagant waste of the public treasure.

where

The state legislature will deem it their duty to adopt it, and carry it out, and no one can know, however small may be the beginning, wh this principle will end. It may present inextricable difficulties, and throw a gloom over the very cause it would promote, or at least present, i the out set, a germ of discord which, of all others, must become more hurtful to the true purposes of free discussion, than any other subject that has ever been adopted.

But, sir, I object to this resolution, not only on the score of a want of constitutional authority to authorize it, but for a still more serious reason; it will introduce secular controversy into every deliberative body, for whatever purpose it may be formed, and be the provocation of a state of things foreign to the best interests of republican institutions. The great question of religious opinion will be mooted and restrained. Men will be pointed at with the finger of scorn, because they enjoy their own peculiar views, or because they cannot think alike with others more numerous and powerful, having the inclination to exercise, by their numerical strength, their power to coerce the weak, and oppress the feeble into the belief of their own particular tenets.

It was this violation of the natural rights of persons that induced the pilgrims to leave their native land; and seek repose in this then rude and inhospitable asylum. It was the remembrance of this violation of the first principles of our nature, that inspired the framers of the general government to reiterate the great truths that all men are created free and equal, and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inaliena ble rights, that, among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happi ness. Aye, sir, it was this that said congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

"all men have

Our own bill of rights is even more specific. It says a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God, according to

the dictates of their own consciences; no man can of right be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any ministry against his consent; no human authority can, in any case whatever, control or interfere with the rights of conscience, and no preference shall ever be given by law to any religious establishments or modes of worship."

When we reflect on the past, and mark the many scenes of war and bloodshed that are found on the page of history, humanity shudders at the thought that more lives have perished for opinion sake, than for any other cause.

Nor have those wars been confined to any particular sect; in turn, they who had the temporal power, also wielded it in a spiritual sense, until the astonished observer would almost turn with disgust, from a scene so fraught with the worst passions that disgrace the human heart. From this horrid picture of man's depravity, and untoward thirst for the control and government of his fellow beings, the degradation to which he would be subjected by an acknowledgment of such influences, would again renew those past events, and fill the earth with sorrow and desolation. Father would war against son, and son against father, the social ties that unite and bind communities together would be severed, and man, a savage monster, would revert into his original barbarism, from which the benign light of a refined religion had already so far redeemed him.

How awful is the delusion, that, under the avowed hope of glad tidings, should lead a crusade in martial array to re-conquer a land, which, of itself is only dear in the reminiscence, as the birth place of him whose whole life and doctrines taught peace on earth, and good will to all mankind.

Yes, under the pretext of religion, to carry the sword and faggot to the remotest parts of the earth, is, at the present day, one of the incomprehensible things of the past, and as repulsive now, as it then may have been esteemed and popular.

In this blest land, from the first, the empire of thought was free and uncontrolled, and every one, alike, exercised its promptings, as the best gift of heaven, conducive too not only of happiness here, but pointing to that goal beyond the stars, where sits enthroned the Great Eternal, as the abiding place hereafter.

The mind is various and desultory; and opinions, in all respects, can never be reconciled. It is incident to our very nature, that, in her own fancy, she should make the swift for the race, and the strong for the battle field, and yet, without other endowments, we are told from high authority, the goal may not be reached by the one, or victory crown the brow of the other.

Thus it is with human institutions, frail and erroneous as they necessarily must be, they should not overstep their propriety in requiring too much, lest they fail to attain what is really within their province, and conducive to the comfort and happiness of all.

What safety has any citizen in his religious opinions, if you do not recognize the principle, that every religious denomination shall have the privilege to employ whom it pleases for the purpose of offering up their adoration to the Great Creator.